Hi again Bill, well the answer re 4ME + 2 DSK's is no. 4ME is as big as you can go. Best regards Dave.

[quote="Bill D"][quote="Dave P"][quote="Bill D"]Dave.. great info thanks a lot. This is the first I have ever heard of this feature. I would think this would be great for bugs, tickers etc., without tieing up switcher resources. So there is no change in the hardware, you just pay for the software to enable this I guess. I also seems like you would want the dsk/ftb module as opposed to the basic ftb module.. thanks again Bill[/quote] It is a smart idea to buy the DSK, FTB module, as even without the software the 2 DSK controls then run in parallel with the last ME's Key1 and Key 2. Not much of a jump in price either, when compared to the FTB only module. The software for the MVS-8000A is BZS-8250 and for the DVS-9000, BZS-9250. YOU CANNOT HAVE 4ME + 2DSK's. Just a bit more info to top it off. :) Best regards Dave.[/quote] Dave, So this extra 2 keyer option does not work on a 4 ME switcher? :( That is what we would get, a 4 ME (3 ME plus pgm/pst, which is of course same as a 4th ME). So that is kind of weird that it doesn't work like that. So that software does nothing on 4 ME. What would you use the dsk/ftb module for then, any use at all? thanks again Bill[/quote] Hi Bill, Let me clarify the situation as known. It is noted that the .5ME software cannot be used to make a 8450A. Control panel certainly cannot be config'd as such. However the question of can I have a 8420A.... = 4ME + 2 DSK's is not really answered. I'll have to do some checking and will reply with the findings to this thread. Best regards Dave.

[quote="Dave P"][quote="Bill D"]Dave.. great info thanks a lot. This is the first I have ever heard of this feature. I would think this would be great for bugs, tickers etc., without tieing up switcher resources. So there is no change in the hardware, you just pay for the software to enable this I guess. I also seems like you would want the dsk/ftb module as opposed to the basic ftb module.. thanks again Bill[/quote] It is a smart idea to buy the DSK, FTB module, as even without the software the 2 DSK controls then run in parallel with the last ME's Key1 and Key 2. Not much of a jump in price either, when compared to the FTB only module. The software for the MVS-8000A is BZS-8250 and for the DVS-9000, BZS-9250. YOU CANNOT HAVE 4ME + 2DSK's. Just a bit more info to top it off. :) Best regards Dave.[/quote] Dave, So this extra 2 keyer option does not work on a 4 ME switcher? :( That is what we would get, a 4 ME (3 ME plus pgm/pst, which is of course same as a 4th ME). So that is kind of weird that it doesn't work like that. So that software does nothing on 4 ME. What would you use the dsk/ftb module for then, any use at all? thanks again Bill

[quote="Bill D"]Dave.. great info thanks a lot. This is the first I have ever heard of this feature. I would think this would be great for bugs, tickers etc., without tieing up switcher resources. So there is no change in the hardware, you just pay for the software to enable this I guess. I also seems like you would want the dsk/ftb module as opposed to the basic ftb module.. thanks again Bill[/quote] Hi Bill, yes the hardware does not change. To add the software feature, some of the flexible output configs become fixed. So you get outputs such as PGM. PST, Aux1 on fixed BNC outs, but this is fine as they are outs that you want anyway. As the software is FPGA re-programming of the output card, it means PGM, PST are not available for re-entry into an ME. They appear on Aux 1 and Edit PVW only. It is a smart idea to buy the DSK, FTB module, as even without the software the 2 DSK controls then run in parallel with the last ME's Key1 and Key 2. Not much of a jump in price either, when compared to the FTB only module. The software for the MVS-8000A is BZS-8250 and for the DVS-9000, BZS-9250. This does not mean that you get only 2.5ME. The software allows you to have in the DVS, 9120 (1ME + 2DSK's), 9150 (1ME + PGM/PST with 2 DSK's) 9220, 9250, 9320, 9350. The same for the MVSA. 8120, 8150, 8220, 8250, 8320, 8350. The software will only work with 1, 2 + 3 ME sizes. YOU CANNOT HAVE 4ME + 2DSK's. Also I must add that the the early DVS-9000 output cards do not support BZS-9250. With the early units they need to buy one later output card. I'm talking about the first 6 months of the 9000. Again, the MVS-8000 non-A cannot use BZS-8250. Just a bit more info to top it off. :) Best regards Dave.

[quote="Dave P"][quote="Bill"]Do these extra keyers show up in the timelines? Or are they just a kind of down and dirty put it in leave it in kind of thing. Could probably use a macro to take it in and out I would think. Lastly would it show up as part of the PGM outputs. Can you mix keys 1,3 and 5 on one output and 2, 4 and 6 on another, etc.. Either way more the better.. sounds great Bill[/quote] G'day again Bill, The 2 DSK control being on the FTB module is truly at the last point of the switcher. Hence there is no time-line or snapshot region for them. The DSK's do have their own key snapshots though. Also macros do cover this module so it would be easy to automate them. They are fed by their own Aux dels. DSK1 V, DSK1 K, DSK2 V, DSK2 K. Really neat. The half ME, 2 DSK software works on the output card, so there are no multi-program style outputs with these 2 DSK's. Also the DME's are not available to the DSK's. Hope all this clarifies things. Again though, this software is only available for the DVS-9000 and MVS-8000A. Different software for each. Best regards Dave.[/quote] Dave.. great info thanks a lot. This is the first I have ever heard of this feature. I would think this would be great for bugs, tickers etc., without tieing up switcher resources. So there is no change in the hardware, you just pay for the software to enable this I guess. I also seems like you would want the dsk/ftb module as opposed to the basic ftb module.. thanks again Bill

[quote="Bill"]Do these extra keyers show up in the timelines? Or are they just a kind of down and dirty put it in leave it in kind of thing. Could probably use a macro to take it in and out I would think. Lastly would it show up as part of the PGM outputs. Can you mix keys 1,3 and 5 on one output and 2, 4 and 6 on another, etc.. Either way more the better.. sounds great Bill[/quote] G'day again Bill, The 2 DSK control being on the FTB module is truly at the last point of the switcher. Hence there is no time-line or snapshot region for them. The DSK's do have their own key snapshots though. Also macros do cover this module so it would be easy to automate them. They are fed by their own Aux dels. DSK1 V, DSK1 K, DSK2 V, DSK2 K. Really neat. The half ME, 2 DSK software works on the output card, so there are no multi-program style outputs with these 2 DSK's. Also the DME's are not available to the DSK's. Hope all this clarifies things. Again though, this software is only available for the DVS-9000 and MVS-8000A. Different software for each. Best regards Dave.

[quote="Dave P"]Bill, probably not what you want to read, but the new MVS-8000A series has half ME software available, exactly the same features as the DVS-9000. This software offers the choice of either 2 modes when installed, PGM/PST with 2 DSK's or just 2 DSK's. When installed as 2 DSK's there is a FTB module that provides the control of the extra 2 keys. In total then, you'd have 6 keys available on the final ME. 4 of the ME + 2 DSK's.[/quote] Dave, of course not the perfect world thing, but that is very good to know. We hope to be getting an 8K next year, if this is in fact the case this would be a great option to push for. Do these extra keyers show up in the timelines? Or are they just a kind of down and dirty put it in leave it in kind of thing. Could probably use a macro to take it in and out I would think. Lastly would it show up as part of the PGM outputs. Can you mix keys 1,3 and 5 on one output and 2, 4 and 6 on another, etc.. Either way more the better.. sounds great Bill

Bill, probably not what you want to read, but the new MVS-8000A series has half ME software available, exactly the same features as the DVS-9000. This software offers the choice of either 2 modes when installed, PGM/PST with 2 DSK's or just 2 DSK's. When installed as 2 DSK's there is a FTB module that provides the control of the extra 2 keys. In total then, you'd have 6 keys available on the final ME. 4 of the ME + 2 DSK's.

[quote="Bob Ennis"]While in Japan, I saw modules that I beleive allow keyers from any M/E to be used under control of a custom DSK module - I think thatthere's even settings that support this in the current version 5 menu (although I don't remember off hand exactly where you find these settings for re-assigning keyers to the DSK). I was told that this is for the way shows are switched in Japan, but it would probably work well for what you are asking about.[/quote] If this is true, I guess again this falls under marketing stuff, but what TD, US, Japan, etc wouldn't be interested in a feature that allows you to borrow keyers from upstream and use it dsk. I hear about so many stations that have all these, time/dow/live/logo bugs that they have to key that they start out right on ME 3 doing the show.. Ideally as I mentioned there could be just optional external keyers since we know just about every station is adding bugs that need to be keyed in the switcher, why even take away resources. (more for the new product info section) Bill

While in Japan, I saw modules that I beleive allow keyers from any M/E to be used under control of a custom DSK module - I think thatthere's even settings that support this in the current version 5 menu (although I don't remember off hand exactly where you find these settings for re-assigning keyers to the DSK). I was told that this is for the way shows are switched in Japan, but it would probably work well for what you are asking about.

[quote="Rick Edwards"][quote="TDmike"]I asked this question to Sony a year ago: Ability to add additional DSKs with the 2DSK/FTB module working with a 4M/E system. Their reply was they had intended to have the option available at some time, but there was no interest so the development for this was stopped. As of this date, I have heard nothing.[/quote] Same here..... as I understood it, that's what that preview module that has the extra two keyer buttons was supposed to be for. It would control some kind of external DSK cards. I was also told the same thing... that Sony canned it becuase no one said they wanted to buy it. Guess from a business stance, it makes sense if you plan something that no one wants that it might make sense to stop spending any more money on it. RE[/quote] I can't believe people actually said they didn't want this feature, not sure of what the option would cost but it seems like a no brainer for almost any station that has multiple bugs. (is that like all of them).. Bill

[quote="TDmike"]I asked this question to Sony a year ago: Ability to add additional DSKs with the 2DSK/FTB module working with a 4M/E system. Their reply was they had intended to have the option available at some time, but there was no interest so the development for this was stopped. As of this date, I have heard nothing.[/quote] Same here..... as I understood it, that's what that preview module that has the extra two keyer buttons was supposed to be for. It would control some kind of external DSK cards. I was also told the same thing... that Sony canned it becuase no one said they wanted to buy it. Guess from a business stance, it makes sense if you plan something that no one wants that it might make sense to stop spending any more money on it. RE

I asked this question to Sony a year ago: Ability to add additional DSKs with the 2DSK/FTB module working with a 4M/E system. Their reply was they had intended to have the option available at some time, but there was no interest so the development for this was stopped. As of this date, I have heard nothing.

[quote="Dave Bernstein"]Have you considered switching your show on m/e3? You would have four keyers there for lower thirds, OTS etc and then four more downstream for tickers and bugs etc. You would still have m/es 1 and 2 available for complex layered effects. I believe that the 8000 allows you to reassign the physical m/e banks to different logical m/e banks so you could keep switching the show on the bank closest to you, but now it's m/e3 and you could make the m/e1 physical bank act as the p/p bank and attach some macros on closer buttons to insert and lose the p/p keyers (if[/quote] I don't think that is a terrible idea, but I would hate to burn an ME just so that I can key all the bugs that are needed. We are fortunate that with our current 4K we have external keyers and an external bug box. There are a lot of stations that get a new switcher and then say ok, now we have all this power we want you to key all these bugs and be able to go to some sources with the time bug, others without, etc. They end up using an ME. It would be cool (maybe this should go to the new product forum) to either have some floating keyers, or to give the option of having some sort of external keyers that the switcher can control in some way. Even if it was limited to having the sources hard wired, a station could key their bugs externally and then still get the full function of the switcher, rather then taking what master control used to do and adding it to the TD's stuff to do.. Also I mentioned earlier in this thread.. can the 8K assign gpi outputs as macro replacements to unused buttons. So if an external keyer accepted GPI's, you could set up macros that turned them on and off. As well as somehow making the live bug go on and off with different sources (pre/post macro attachments?) thanks Bill

[quote="Rick Edwards"]By the way I hear through the grapevine that one of the next version of software in the 8000 let's youre-route a keyer from upstream to use as a 5th or 6th DSK. Don't know any more than that. RE[/quote] That sounds very cool..if it is true

Rick, I forgot about the layered mode. I used it last year for pre-season football. I'm not sure if you were the one who posted the info on the old board, but I remember that I forgot my printout at home and had to search for the directions. I would not want to try to set it up with 10 minutes to air, but it is easy once you do it once. I can't remember if I used a snapshot or effect to save the layers.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]What is actually needed is a combiner, take two or three fill/key sources and get one combined key/fill output that could be brought back into the switcher and keyed on ONE keyer. A 4000-2 with one ME in layered mode or a DVEous or a dual channel Sony DME 7000 would work. At one time there were several multi input external DSK boxes made, however I don't remember if any of the output a key/fill.[/quote] Actually, depending on how you set up your show, this is quite easy on the 8000/9000 but takes a bit of setup..... First, pick an M/E.... let's pick on M/E as an example..... We need to set M/E 1 into Multi=Program mode..... Go tp menu page 7331 and set M/E 1 to Multi-PGM Next go to menu page 7331.1 and set M/E 1 Out 5 to KeyPVW2. This should leave M/E 1 as: Out 1: PGM Out 2: PVW Out 3: CLEAN Out 4: KPVW1 Out 5: KPVW2 Next, go to menu page 7331.3 and select M/E 1 Key preview 1 on the table. Then Set the Mode to Video, the background to Utility 2, then set Key 1 to OFF and Key 2,3,4 to Link. Then set M/E 1 Key preview 2 to the table and repeat the above, except please set the Mode to KEY. At this point, the bkgs doesn't matter in key mode. What you now have is one M/E 1 output (#4) that is feeding the composited key 2,3,4 over Utility 2 (which you should set to BLACK) and M/E 1 OUT 5 is set to be the compositied key signal for just this. If you haven't messed too much with the main V/K pairs in setup you should find both of these signals there which you can now assign to a button on the switcher. If you have messed with the main V/K pairs, you'll just need to create one that has M/E 1 OUT 4 as the video and M/E 1 OUT 5 as the key. Most people don't know that each M/E buttom actually has a shifted function. For instance, M/E 1's button is button # 121. SHIFT+M/E 1 is button number 125 (I'm doing this from memory so please don't yell at me if I'm off a couple of digits -- you'll figure it out). So, using xpt assign and table assign (hopefully you know how to do this), then ultimately assign M/E 1 OUT 3 (might also show up as M/E 1 KPVW1) as the video for button 125 and M/E 1 OUT 4 (might also show up as M/E 1 KPVW2) to the key for button 125. Then just key Shift+M/E 1 on your DSK and it should key all three keyers perfectly. You can also use this to layer the entire M/E bank. If you just turn ALL the keys to LINK mode (rememeber we turned Key 1 OFF -- that way you could still use key 1 on the main M/E output) then you'd have all they keyers availabel. Make sure that you set M/E 1 UTIL2 to black or you might see bleed through of strange video in the transparencies. By the way I hear through the grapevine that one of the next version of software in the 8000 let's youre-route a keyer from upstream to use as a 5th or 6th DSK. Don't know any more than that. RE

What is actually needed is a combiner, take two or three fill/key sources and get one combined key/fill output that could be brought back into the switcher and keyed on ONE keyer. A 4000-2 with one ME in layered mode or a DVEous or a dual channel Sony DME 7000 would work. At one time there were several multi input external DSK boxes made, however I don't remember if any of the output a key/fill.

Clint, even though they tie up your DSK, I am just happy someone cares enough to want a "clean show" vs. just get something on the air. Scott S. [quote="Clint Hendricks"]We too wish we had more DSKs for doing news DSK1 - Deko A DSK 2 - Deko B DSK 3 - Time and Temp Bug DSK 4 - News Ticker ---------- We have to go up to an M/E to do any DDR Opens or Transitions. We can't key the time and temp or ticker out of Master because news wants clean transitions taking the bug and ticker in and out for some elements. -Clint WLUK - Green Bay[/quote]

Have you considered switching your show on m/e3? You would have four keyers there for lower thirds, OTS etc and then four more downstream for tickers and bugs etc. You would still have m/es 1 and 2 available for complex layered effects. I believe that the 8000 allows you to reassign the physical m/e banks to different logical m/e banks so you could keep switching the show on the bank closest to you, but now it's m/e3 and you could make the m/e1 physical bank act as the p/p bank and attach some macros on closer buttons to insert and lose the p/p keyers (if you don't want to have to reach all the way up there to do it.) For transitions you could key the DDR on a p/p keyer, but use a macro or re-entered GPI to trigger a transition on m/e3 so you could wipe from talent with Duet1 to tape with Duet2 and, if Duet2 is wrong, at the last minute release its keyer from the "next trans" and wipe to the tape clean because you have not built a timeline on m/e3, you're just using a macro or GPI'd auto trans. Hope this is comprehensible, sorry about the ragged writing. cheers dave

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]Bill, FOUR DSK's aren't enough????!!? Seriously, I never saw anything about that capability. Now, do any stand alone keyers use GPI or PBus?[/quote] HAHAH... Yes 4 are plenty (only have two now). That is plenty for a show, not for a show plus logo bug, live bug, dow bug, other misc bug (weather, etc). Right now we use an external box, with external keyers, so I guess I am luckier then Clint who has to go into an ME for transitions. The external keyers we use I am sure take GPI's for on/off. I guess you could attach a GPI as a macro and then attach that macro to a button? Wonder if you could set it up someway so that certain sources tallied bring the live bug in and out through the GPI. I always thought the DD series that had that option was a great idea (external dsk keyers) thanks Bill

You know, I fear that IF a switcher maker would build one with eight DSK's, a news director or executive producer would find a way to fill those and ask for more. For example simultaneous 4x3 and 16x9 keys used.

We too wish we had more DSKs for doing news DSK1 - Deko A DSK 2 - Deko B DSK 3 - Time and Temp Bug DSK 4 - News Ticker ---------- We have to go up to an M/E to do any DDR Opens or Transitions. We can't key the time and temp or ticker out of Master because news wants clean transitions taking the bug and ticker in and out for some elements. -Clint WLUK - Green Bay

Bill, FOUR DSK's aren't enough????!!? Seriously, I never saw anything about that capability. Now, do any stand alone keyers use GPI or PBus?