[quote="RedRaider"]WOW, I honestly can not believe that is all they are paying. I TD High School Sports in OK and make at least that on those games. Seems to me that may be slightly an underpay issue.[/quote] Talk about underpay in High School sports...Here in Toledo is where they are learning how to do the rate lowerings. Any local freelancers are shut out of two major facilities here by college students. The local triple A baseball team, has TWO jumbotrons and a feed to the local cable sports channel all run by students. "This will give them the experience they need to get a job after college." is the accountants excuse. $65 a game. Same with the local sports channel that primarily does high school sports 24/7. The funny thing is that there is no Mentor or EIC that these kids are learning from. Now for the big question; Since you don't hire professionals and the kids are "getting experience", I ask for what??? Your not in college anymore and the same folks you have been working for won't hire you now!!! And city leaders ask why there is "brain drain" going on in the area! Stand your ground guys, it can get worse.

I think I agree with you on every point there. The interesting thing will be seeing whether one of the regulars here actually does go for those rates (dropping their own rates in the process), or whether they'll hire Joe Studio-TD because no experienced TDs will do it, and seeing how those shows look for the first few weeks.

The unfortunate part of all of this is that they WILL get people to work for that kind of money. While we as TD's often talk about working together, the fact is that there will always be someone who is either hungry enough or new enough to agree to work for whatever the crewer decides to pay. The crewers bank on this, and sadly, they are more often than not correct. I go on the assumption that as an independent contractor, I offer professional services to clients. If you (like a "crewer") request the services of a doctor (or a lawyer, or a plumber, or a even a cleaninging service), YOU don't decide what you will pay...they do - they have their rates and aren't often going to negociate. If they drop their rates for you, they will never get their original asking price back. The same goes for us. Once you agree to work for less & that word gets out, you will have a VERY hard time getting your rate back up to where it was. It all boils down to 2 things: (1) You get what you pay for, and (2) if you don't like the rate or can't make a living at that rate, you would probably be doing yourself a favor by just saying "no" and save your time for more profitable gigs.

WOW, I honestly can not believe that is all they are paying. I TD High School Sports in OK and make at least that on those games. Seems to me that may be slightly an underpay issue.

[quote="EricG"]I'm sure you could try - but just going by (my admittedly limited) experience, they would rather throw somebody in the chair that's in over their head for $375, rather than pay $450 to an experienced guy. Especially considering it's an away feed - what motivation would they have to put someone good on someone else's show?[/quote] Eric, there are a few other markets where the home guys crew both shows and about two years back a director who was pissed with the camera ops he got said he was going to let his crewer know to book a "B" crew in response for the bad crew he got.

... and then break their pencil, and tell them to keep working.

[quote="Rick Tugman"]The smaller the switcher, the more work you actually have to do so in essense it is a DUEL.[/quote] That was what I was trying to get at in a roundabout sort of way, the absurdist logic of saying "you have a smaller switcher so it must be less work". I seriously think the beancounters who approve this stuff should be forced to come out on a Duel one day and look at the mess they've created for us. Or maybe we should replace their spreadsheet software with a pencil and paper.

[quote="sahonen"]We just got the mighty Duel Feed around here (special thanks to whoever it was who intentionally spelled it "duel"), no plans to pay the away feed less yet, but I'll let you know if it does. Perhaps the logic is that the smaller your switcher the less money you should get?[/quote] The smaller the switcher, the more work you actually have to do so in essense it is a DUEL. These guys want the same show not matter what and some production teams exepct Duet 1 & 2, Telestrators, and Bugging video along with their 2 or 3 cameras for their coverage. They will want you to do everything you do on a normal Kalypso to where I say forget it! It's just not worth it especially when they give you one M/E. They have taken good sports television and killed it. I for one am tired of seeing the backs of heads of players as they walk off the field and swish pans. It's very frustrating to work in this environment. This is not the kind of television I like to do and if this is how they approach their television coverage then they truly aren't concerned about the viewer number 1, and they don't need all the bells and whistles while you bust you A-- to make it happen on one M/E. It's a sad state of affairs and something is certainly off the mark here especially when they are already making more than enough in cable fees along with their advertising. The funny thing is .... they could so much more with advertising if they had full use of the facilities, but then sales would have to work more.

[quote="Bill D"]I know we are getting off topic, but.. I did a CSTV game recently the college had boxed lunches, turkey sandwich with soda, chips and cookies.. Not to bad for free..[/quote] I worked a CSTV game where they went through the college's dining service. And I though the dorm food was bad enough when I was attending there, I found out that their catering was even worse. Still... Free food is awfully nice. We just got the mighty Duel Feed around here (special thanks to whoever it was who intentionally spelled it "duel"), no plans to pay the away feed less yet, but I'll let you know if it does. Perhaps the logic is that the smaller your switcher the less money you should get?

A car service from Midtown to Newark "Liberty" Airport, or JFK is going to run $100 one way, of course talent will have the car service, we'll be expected to take the subway/commuter rail. The problem with $375 in NYC, or anywhere for that matter is they can gamble on someone taking it. What's A1 and EVS make?

I'm far from a big market like NYC, but even I cringe at $375 for an NBA game featuring multimillionaire athletes. A TD where I am gets $350 for high school sporting events AND very good meals, including more snacks at halftime and a loaded cooler of drinks. It is my understanding that the current contract also has the rates going up incrementally each year too. Eric knows where I am :)

[quote="EricG"]Craft services for the home show? At MSG??? Keep dreamin'.[/quote] I know we are getting off topic, but.. I did a CSTV game recently the college had boxed lunches, turkey sandwich with soda, chips and cookies.. Not to bad for free.. Telemundo used to have nice spreads for their NBA games. But yes I agree $75 is nothing in the big picture, I have heard of producers staying in the city and taking a cab to NJ for away feeds costing insane $$

Craft services for the home show? At MSG??? Keep dreamin'.

Do you realize that the $75 per day difference that you are talking about is probably less than they spend on Craft Services for the home show, or less than 1/10th of the cost of the limo to shuttle the on-air talent (aka "flesh puppets") to & from the venue? I understand that we all need to work, but I wouldn't want to waste my time working for people whose priorities put more value on the "snack run to Costco" than on the person who is ultimately responsible for the on-air look of their show.

The rate discrepencies nationwide are just unbelievable.

I'm sure you could try - but just going by (my admittedly limited) experience, they would rather throw somebody in the chair that's in over their head for $375, rather than pay $450 to an experienced guy. Especially considering it's an away feed - what motivation would they have to put someone good on someone else's show?

Is it like other union locals where that's the contracted minimum, yet the independent can negotiate more with the crewer? Or is the issue being that's what the Garden's end of discussion?

ok, that does it... i am officially never doing another away feed at the garden! ; )

[quote="EricG"][quote="Bill D"]So this no longer goes through the local crewer, that we have all worked for? The current rate for Knick's games and all others is higher then the new rate. Usually same rate whether it is a Away game with FFV or a college game with 3 DVE moves.. Bill[/quote] In other words, stay tuned. My gut tells me that when they're not saying whether they're really going to pay $375 for an away feed or not.... that means they're planning on paying $375 for an away feed. If they can get away with it. I hope I'm wrong. We'll see. With any luck, the guys they call to work this winter will stand firm and charge a rate that's competitive with Boston and Philly (yeah, the away feeds there both pay more than the away feeds in NYC right now)[/quote] What are those rates in other cities for away feeds?? No reason NY should be less !!

[quote="Bill D"]So this no longer goes through the local crewer, that we have all worked for? The current rate for Knick's games and all others is higher then the new rate. Usually same rate whether it is a Away game with FFV or a college game with 3 DVE moves.. Bill[/quote] The "current rate" being higher than the "new rate" was the whole reason I posted in the first place. Okay, got a little more info today.... very little. MSG hasn't yet decided whether they're actually going to crew the games in-house with their own crewers (that currently crew home feeds) or use an outside crewer (meaning, the CURRENT outside crewer, I would think). And of course, with THAT still being up in the air, they're not talking at all about whether the info we got about rates is accurate. At least, not to my source, anyway. Again, there's probably plenty of guys that know more than I do about this, I'm no expert or insider. In other words, stay tuned. My gut tells me that when they're not saying whether they're really going to pay $375 for an away feed or not.... that means they're planning on paying $375 for an away feed. If they can get away with it. I hope I'm wrong. We'll see. With any luck, the guys they call to work this winter will stand firm and charge a rate that's competitive with Boston and Philly (yeah, the away feeds there both pay more than the away feeds in NYC right now)

[quote="Dave Bernstein"]I seem to remember that the last time there was a "problem" with TD rates in Gotham, they (the Garden) ended up bringing in a whole 'nother HD truck for months just to train 2 replacement TDs (a helluva lot more expensive than giving the TDs the $50 per day they were requesting to switch an HD show (with a clean AND a semi-clean (for 4x3) feed on a hobbled HDVS7300)). I don't think any of those TDs are working locally any more, but I'm sure that they're all still doing very well![/quote] Always remember...they need us just as much as we need them...hold your ground boys & girls.

I seem to remember that the last time there was a "problem" with TD rates in Gotham, they (the Garden) ended up bringing in a whole 'nother HD truck for months just to train 2 replacement TDs (a helluva lot more expensive than giving the TDs the $50 per day they were requesting to switch an HD show (with a clean AND a semi-clean (for 4x3) feed on a hobbled HDVS7300)). I don't think any of those TDs are working locally any more, but I'm sure that they're all still doing very well!

[quote="EricG"]Okay, so that's for NBA games - NHL games, apparently, they're going to pay $420 for 10. wow! Just thought I'd get the info out - apparently last Tuesday, a new contract was voted in between MSG and IBEW. According to the info I got in an email, all Knick and Ranger games will be crewed in house, but the away feeds will not pay the same as the home feeds. Ranger games - away feed TD gets $420/10 Knick games - away feed TD gets $375/10 If you didn't know anything about this, feel free to email me if you need more info (there's a meeting coming up). If you did already know about this then you probably know more about it than I do, so feel free to post any clarifications/updates here.[/quote] So this no longer goes through the local crewer, that we have all worked for? The current rate for Knick's games and all others is higher then the new rate. Usually same rate whether it is a Away game with FFV or a college game with 3 DVE moves.. Bill

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"]What's the current union rate there? That's what you get when it's tape guys deciding and voting in the TD rate.[/quote] STUDIO tape guys at that ...

What's the current union rate there? That's what you get when it's tape guys deciding and voting in the TD rate.

You could probably survive - you just wouldn't have any extra money lying around for say, anything besides food, rent, and other basic needs. It'll be interesting to see what TD's they can talk into working for that rate - since I know that none of the guys that currently do away feeds around here would do it.

How in the world can someone survive off of $375 a day in NYC?