[quote="Rick Tugman"]Brad is perfectly correct.... with the 2 M/E Kalypso you can have full control, but it will still be 2 M/E's in reality. The actual footprint is smaller, but you have the option to add and then delegate additional M/Es that you may need to be active. NMT's SBS 2 has the same switcher onboard a 30 foot mobile unit and it can be very powerful if the other M/E's are optioned. If not, with Macros it is still a extremely powerful and a very user friendly switcher.[/quote] I had several occasions since December to use NMT SBS3 which also has the 2 M/E Kalypso. The switcher was configured with 1 M/E plus Pgm/Pst. Since I was working on a network production, I did insist that they add the "Double Take" option, as well as the optional expanded TE effects. (I didn't realize until it was too late that adding additional M/E cards was a possibility for the smaller control panel.) While I would have preferred a full 4 M/E Kalypso, I was able to successfully switch the show using the 1 M/E for camera cuts and inserts, Pgm/Pst for Spotbox transitions, and the added benefits of "Double Take" for split screens and occasional plasma feeds. In retrospect, if given the option I would trade "Double Take" for an additional M/E card. It should be noted that this was not a game, but a scripted on-site studio show. I wouldn't want to switch a game without having at least 2.5 M/Es. I have never seen the Kayak, but from everything I have heard/read, I would avoid it, especially if you want a truck that is marketable. If the size of the control panel is an issue, than a 2 M/E Kalypso panel configured with the proper amount of M/Es and options might be your answer.

Mongo: Brad is perfectly correct.... with the 2 M/E Kalypso you can have full control, but it will still be 2 M/E's in reality. The actual footprint is smaller, but you have the option to add and then delegate additional M/Es that you may need to be active. NMT's SBS 2 has the same switcher onboard a 30 foot mobile unit and it can be very powerful if the other M/E's are optioned. If not, with Macros it is still a extremely powerful and a very user friendly switcher. Additionally, you can use the majority of your "full" Kalypso files on it which makes the transition even easier. Check out the NMT SBS-2 website: For the sake of you and your company, I sincerely hope they opt for the Kalypso over the Kayak. It would be a tragedy to put the Kayak in any truck. Case in point, I received a call this past week from a EIC who had a Kayak in a truck and they couldn't even capture a simple still store to the RAM recorder. I attempted to help him and even went through the manual for him but, he was unsuccessful. I wasn't there but attempted to help in anyway I could as he had been on the truck for several weeks. I just don't beleive you can have a successful show with a Kayak when you can't do simple tasks easily. Just to be able to cut cameras doesn't constitute a sussessful show! The bottom line is the Kayak was designed for automation and it does not interact well with users who need to program simple tasks quickly in remote operations. The 2 M/E Kalypso is just the same as any other Kalypso in operation and will be more than enough for what you need to do.

[quote="brad fisher"]Remember that a 2 M/E Kalypso represents 2 banks of controls, which can be delegated to control all 4 M/E rows of the Kalypso, up to 6 TEs, up to 16 Chromakeys, 8 Still Store outputs etc. Exactly the same capability, just with a smaller control panel. brad[/quote] I was under the impression that a 2 ME Kalypso was just that...2 MEs. If it is actually the same capability (4 MEs under the control of 2), that might be an option... I'm really pushing hard for a full Kalypso. Not only am I most comfortable with it, I think it makes our truck easier to rent out. Plus, whatever we put in is what we'll be stuck with for a long time. This isn't an ESPN or Fox, we have a VERY limited budget, and can't be replacing the switcher every few years... Thanks for all the input. Mongo

[quote="Sean"]I'm also curious why TGV didn't grab a few other strong points from the DD series (I am a fan of the DD line, I do however think that some less than great decisions were made with Kayak- huge understatement, I know). Sean[/quote] Sean, the answer to your question is very simple....the hardware for Kayak was designed in Grass Valley, while the software was designed in & supported in Weiderstadt. That means that the "Grass Valley" bias towards what a switcher should do was designed in to the hardware, which limits many of the features that you expects out of a DD (like doing transforms on the background buses instead of needing to use keyers); and the "BTS/Philips" bias towards operations was designed into the software, taking their cue from the DD series. So things like having to run DVE channels as separate timelines instead of from the M/E timeline or having to incorporate a MakeMemo into E-Mem recalls is a holdover from the "DD-mentality". But if the hardware can't support the software - or vice-versa, you lose out on some of the features that you liked on previous products. Both the GV and the Philips approaches worked great for their respective customers when the companies were competetitors. But when you have two very approaches to accomplishing the same set of tasks and you force those two philosophies together (especially when trying to rush a product to market like the Kayak was done), the end result is not always as seemless as you would like, and certain features get ignored or "designed out" based on either the perceived need or maybe because of a philosophy of "we don't do that feature that way". As an analogy, imagine trying to take Ford and Toyota & merge them together, each with their own sets of design teams, management, and distributors who are absolutly convinced that their approach is better than the other's; tell them to make a car together, and do it fast...as a customer you may get a car, but it may not embody the best of both original companies - to say nothing of any continuing power struggles that go on behind the scenes that you as a customer will never know about.

[quote="Mongo"]... We're replacing a Zodiak 2.5 ME, so backing up to a 2 ME Kalypso isn't likely (although I probably could do everything we do now with it, but there would be no room to grow). ... That leaves the issue of real estate. ... It goes side-to-side now, but would arranging it front-to-back make a difference? ... Thanks all[/quote] Remember that a 2 M/E Kalypso represents 2 banks of controls, which can be delegated to control all 4 M/E rows of the Kalypso, up to 6 TEs, up to 16 Chromakeys, 8 Still Store outputs etc. Exactly the same capability, just with a smaller control panel. My company has 19 Kalypsos of the compact 2-M/E footprint. About 6 of these are in trucks. One big advantage over the larger footprint panel is actually the "PgmPst Bank Delegate" control. For those of you who switch on M/E3, with Pgm/Pst merely providing downstream and clean outs, you would set up Pgm/Pst however you liked, then delegate the closest Bank of M/E controls to be M/E3 row. No more reaching with outstretched arms for the duration of a program. However, the compact panel is 24 buttons wide, compared with 32 buttons wide. If you need to cut directly to more than 24 sources, you may be challenged. If using less than 24 primary sources, you could put all your keyable sources on the shifted side, and operate those busses in shift mode, so you never need to hold down the Shift button for 24 primary sources or 24 keyable sources. There's also tricky things you can do with Bus Linking to allow the M/E Bank to also give you 24 single-push sources linked to PgmPst-A and PgmPst-B. At some stage a long time ago, our Vision Switcher was on the right-hand side of the truck. This gave the operator a lot of spare space to their right, and bunched-up the director and others to the switcher's left. Our most recent trucks all put the Vision Switcher on the left of the truck, and the director etc to their right. It gave a little more room, as the director could stretch without punching the operator in the face. I've worked in a "front to back" - it was a tight fit squeezing past people to get to the door, but LCD or plasmas will make that much easier. "Side to side" will be uncomfortable on those few jobs that have 3 people across. brad

Following up on Mike's thoughts... I'm also curious why TGV didn't grab a few other strong points from the DD series (I am a fan of the DD line, I do however think that some less than great decisions were made with Kayak- huge understatement, I know). -transforms on the DD (they called it the DVx back then, of course and there were only 4 total channels) could be assigned as actual crosspoints -transform channels could be combined in any combo (4 single ch, a single 4-ch, two 2-ch, whatever) +I know that with 16 total on Kayak that might not be entirely possible, but why not be able to combine within the ME? -transforms could be applied to background sources, you did not have to use a keyer -what about the ability to turn an ME into a shotbox? with names on the emems? that exists all the way back to the DD20 and DD30. What's funny here (not funny ha-ha, but funny peculiar) is that many of these are of course now features on another board...and didn't we all just read a press release here recently where Sony added the last feature l mention? I don't weigh in too often here, I prefer to read and learn, but I just couldn't resist any longer. Sean

[quote="kschneider"]Oh well, it's nice to know that [i][u]somebody[/i][/u] out there likes our switcher. :) Cheers, -= Ken =-[/quote] Don't worry Ken, Rick doesn't speak for all of us. Most TD's I've talked to that actually know and use the DD35/XtenDD switchers love what they can do and I've heard nothing but praise from some well respected TD's who've used the Kahuna. I'm glad the people at S&W are pushing the envelope and listening to their users, there are some features you see on other switchers that were first found on the Kahuna. Regarding the Kayak, I don't know why GVG couldn't have just added some of the Thompson features, like macro editing and partial keyframing to the Kalypso DNA and design, made the menu faster and more user friendly, redesign the SS and stick that into a modular frame. If they did that, I think this would be an entirely different thread.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"][quote="kschneider"]I didn't know that being designed in the UK makes a switcher awful. Hmmmmm. Very Odd.[/quote] Ken, You have heard of the problems that Jaguar had with the British designed and made Lucas electronics maybe 20 years ago, right? I also heard that the Brits drank their beer warm because they could not build a proper refrigerator. What about the Comet, the jet. And finally, the SA-80 rifle that the Brits adopted, to replace the L1A1, it cost them how much to get it right?? Almost $1 billion to have the thing rebuilt??? I'm just busting your chops. I haven't had a chance to try your switcher yet and the one facility that I know that has your gear likes it.[/quote] Hi Mike - But they did give us the Harrier Jump Jet, Cadbury chocolate, Thomas' English Muffins plus all those cool James Bond gadgets. :D Oh well, it's nice to know that [i][u]somebody[/i][/u] out there likes our switcher. :) Cheers, -= Ken =-

[quote="Rick Edwards"]As many people as you have said like the Kahuna, I hear story after story of people who do not like it as it has a very "european" mindset to the control panel and many many things are just... backwards to what people are used to. RE[/quote] Hi Rick - Although this is not the forum for talking about Kahuna, let me just say that I know of only 2 TDs that don't like Kahuna after they have switched on it. They are both backup TDs that get on it only a few time a year. Their normal duties have them switching almost daily on a Kalypso or an 8000A (they love both). I could go on and on but like I said, this is not the place. It could also very easily turn into a Mac vs PC or a Ford vs Chevy thing. No need for that. I'll just quietly go away now. :) Cheers, -= Ken =-

[quote="kschneider"]I didn't know that being designed in the UK makes a switcher awful. Hmmmmm. Very Odd.[/quote] Ken, You have heard of the problems that Jaguar had with the British designed and made Lucas electronics maybe 20 years ago, right? I also heard that the Brits drank their beer warm because they could not build a proper refrigerator. What about the Comet, the jet. And finally, the SA-80 rifle that the Brits adopted, to replace the L1A1, it cost them how much to get it right?? Almost $1 billion to have the thing rebuilt??? I'm just busting your chops. I haven't had a chance to try your switcher yet and the one facility that I know that has your gear likes it.

[quote="Rick Edwards"][quote="Mongo"]Thanks for all the info, guys. Hopefully this will be enough to convince him to stay away from the Kayak...even if we end up with a Sony. (I just threw up a little...) I have a question about the Kahuna, though... How close is it to the Kalypso from an operational standpoint?[/quote] Not even close! It's worse than the Kayak. Kahuna is another European-designed switcher. RE[/quote] I didn't know that being designed in the UK makes a switcher awful. Hmmmmm. Very Odd. The best thing to do is get demos at your facility from each of the switchers you are considering - either all at the same time or scheduled for different days or weeks. If you have the flexibility, hook up your tape machines, servers, router, monitors, audio board and cameras to the switchers so that everyone is on a level playing field. Then make your decision on what you experience. Make sure you get to pound on the switchers and try them out yourself. Cheers, -= Ken =- Ken Schneider Kahuna Program Manager ken.schneider@snellwilcox.com

[quote="Mongo"]Thanks for all the info, guys. Hopefully this will be enough to convince him to stay away from the Kayak...even if we end up with a Sony. (I just threw up a little...) I have a question about the Kahuna, though... How close is it to the Kalypso from an operational standpoint?[/quote] Not even close! It's worse than the Kayak. Kahuna is another European-designed switcher. RE

Thanks for all the info, guys. Hopefully this will be enough to convince him to stay away from the Kayak...even if we end up with a Sony. (I just threw up a little...) I have a question about the Kahuna, though... How close is it to the Kalypso from an operational standpoint?

[quote="EricG"]Regardless of how shitty the final product is a lot of money went into making that product, and any corporation is going to do whatever they have to do to salvage what sales they can once they're in that situation.[/quote] Not too much money went into this product other than a redesign of the same old crap they tried to pawn off on the American Market once before. The only difference is the transform engines and it being HD now. It's still the same old crappy DD35/XtenDD menu system, software & architecture - all of which was a utter failure not once, but twice. If Thomson/Grass Valley is going to do anything they should sit up and listen epsecially as they begin to lose sales!!! We are not stupid and we should never accept a substandard product no matter what, even if they wanted to give it away. The Grass Valley company set the standard for switchers for many years, and it was and is their simplicity that made them the most successful switchers in the world. Buying out your competition doesn't mean the product your trying to peddle now is a true Grass Valley product. As I have said before, history will repeat itself and the Kayak WILL FALL to the same fate as it's predecessors. It's just a matter of time before the decision makers get educated and the word gets out that the Kayak is a real piece of garbage.

I'm just taking a wild-ass guess here, but if I was a betting man, I'd put money down that all this Kayak talk has more to do with Thomson/GV having all the contacts and pushing this switcher hard towards those contacts, than it does with price. I'm sure it's no secret among the sales people there that TD's hate it, truck companies won't be able to rent out trucks that have it, and it's an inferior product in general, but their job is to sell, and by god, sell they will, no matter what they have to do or say to get it sold. Regardless of how shitty the final product is (matter of opinion, of course, although I think we can safely say there's a clear majority opinion here) a lot of money went into making that product, and any corporation is going to do whatever they have to do to salvage what sales they can once they're in that situation.

Just curious does anyone know what the price comparisons are of similar equipped 8K, Kalypso, Kayak and Kahuna. Is Kayak really pricing stuff so much lower then others?

[quote="EricG"]On a serious note, I actually work for a client all summer (those of you who know me know who I'm talking about) that use their own trucks. They're currently building a replacement for their small truck and the switcher issue is, indeed, an issue. It has to be HD, and they were considering a Kayak (not anymore, from what I'm told) because of the size restrictions, but if there's a Sony 8000 variant that's small enough to put into those bread-truck-type trucks without taking up too much of the front row, I'm pretty sure they're going to go that way instead. They had seriously considered a Kalypso even WITH the size restrictions because they're so dead set against the Kayak at this point, only because they also want to rent the truck out when baseball is over, and the GVG name sounds good when you want to rent a truck out. With the 8000 getting so much traction among TDs, however, I have to think they'd be able to rent the truck out with an 8000 in it - maybe not as easily as with a Kalypso, but certainly more easily than with a Kayak in it.[/quote] Matt is correct, becuase of Sony's modular control panel they can put together any kind of control panel they want. If you are putting it into a "bread truck" (I used to call the fish wagons!) perhaps a 16-button panel would work. You can also reduce width of the control panel by swapping out the standard transition module for the comapct one. The biggest difference there is no separate key buttons for CUT and MIX -- just one. Also the keyer buttons are vertically stacked vs horizonally. I think you save a whopping 1/3 of a rack width doing that. But it does add up. That's the beauty of the modular panel. also, don't forget that if 34 inputs isn't enough that you can absolutely buy a short-loaded 8RU frame, but put a 2.5 M/E guts and panel on it. That leaves lots of room to expand if you need in the future (remember that you can expand the 8000's panel too). RE

[quote="EricG"]Hey, I was just wondering.... does anyone know if Sony makes a small-frame version of the 8000G, and would you have to compromise on things like split M/E or hanging a PC with special software on the panel to get advanced functions?[/quote] Just like the 8000A, the 8000G comes in a small frame version, but really the small frame is 4RU where as the "big" frame is 8RU. Not relaly that much difference in size. The 4RU has all the same features as the 8RU frame, except: 34 inputs instead of 80 24 outputs instead of 48 Can handle one frame memory board instead of 2 (1000 frames vs. 2000 frames of HD -- 5000 frames of SD vs. 10000 of SD) Max of 2.5 M/E instead of 4.0 Can handle a max of 4 internal channels of 3D DME instead of 8 on the big frame (don't forget that each keyer has a 2D DME standard now) I think that's it. RE

On a serious note, I actually work for a client all summer (those of you who know me know who I'm talking about) that use their own trucks. They're currently building a replacement for their small truck and the switcher issue is, indeed, an issue. It has to be HD, and they were considering a Kayak (not anymore, from what I'm told) because of the size restrictions, but if there's a Sony 8000 variant that's small enough to put into those bread-truck-type trucks without taking up too much of the front row, I'm pretty sure they're going to go that way instead. They had seriously considered a Kalypso even WITH the size restrictions because they're so dead set against the Kayak at this point, only because they also want to rent the truck out when baseball is over, and the GVG name sounds good when you want to rent a truck out. With the 8000 getting so much traction among TDs, however, I have to think they'd be able to rent the truck out with an 8000 in it - maybe not as easily as with a Kalypso, but certainly more easily than with a Kayak in it.

[quote="EricG"]Hey, I was just wondering.... does anyone know if Sony makes a small-frame version of the 8000G, and would you have to compromise on things like split M/E or hanging a PC with special software on the panel to get advanced functions?[/quote] Hmm, I'm not sure, maybe you should ask Rick Edwards, I have a feeling he might know.

[quote="EricG"]Hey, I was just wondering.... does anyone know if Sony makes a small-frame version of the 8000G, and would you have to compromise on things like split M/E or hanging a PC with special software on the panel to get advanced functions?[/quote] I'm not entirely sure about the 8000G, but if they follow suit from the 8000A, they would have the "G" frame (3.5 or 4 MEs), or the "GSF" frame (1 or 2.5 MEs). The "G" will also have "resizers" built in for each keyer, which will give you simple DME-type X, Y and Z positioning, aspect, and beveling (I believe). If you want full-blown DME capability, you'll also have the DME processor to be rack mounted. There is also the DCU which is usually mounted closer to the actual switcher panel, and this is what runs your menu panel GUI in addition to the switcher panel, so that wouldn't be compromised, and I don't believe that Multi-PGM II would be compromised at all by a smaller panel layout, but I'm not entirely sure. Sony has a few different configurations to choose from as far as 16, 24 and 32 XPT modules and AUX busses as well as compact transition modules, so you could really reduce the footprint of your panel, if need be. Hope that helps a bit... Matt

Hey, I was just wondering.... does anyone know if Sony makes a small-frame version of the 8000G, and would you have to compromise on things like split M/E or hanging a PC with special software on the panel to get advanced functions?

Hey Matt. I don't think Kalypso's are going away for a long time. In fact plenty of them were put into trucks very recently from what I've been hearing. - Dave

I know that Mobile TV Group is also adding some new trucks mainly for Big Ten, and they've decided on the Kayak, too -- I'm not sure if they are on the website yet. I think that Dave and Rick have some excellent points. What, the same colored buttons as a Kalypso isn't enough like a "real Grass" for us crazy TDs? :-) I know that my first time on a Kayak was interesting to say the least (I didn't even know that one was in the truck!). If the Director hadn't trained on the Kayak (he still TDs a bit) and been a good source of info, I surely would have not been able to give them the show that they wanted. The theory behind the Kayak is interesting, and that it is a better solution for "middle-market TV" than say a Zodiak makes me scratch my head a bit. Hopefully, the rumored elimination of the Kalypso is a wive's tale, and that it doesn't follow the same path of the Zodiak. Matt

I do think it's important (as Rick Tugman has pointed out) that these executives who are thinking about putting Kayak switchers into trucks realize (and I'm pretty sure they don't) that a Kayak switcher, even though it is called a Grass Valley Kayak, isn't really a Grass Valley switcher. It is nothing like a Kalypso, nothing like a 4K, nothing like a Zodiak. To reiterate....the Kayak is nothing like a "true" Grass Valley switcher. I did one gig this past winter on a Kayak and it was brutal. The only thing that got me (a ten year, pretty seasoned TD) through it was the EIC who knew timelines. As far as cost goes, the most expensive option would be to, say put in a few Kayaks and then 1 or 2 years later be forced (due to a glaring lack of qualified and/or willing operators) to replace them with Kalypso's. That could easily happen because I know of a few trucks that pulled out Sony 8000's and replaced them with Kalypso's and the Sony's, despite being difficult to run for the unfamiliar, are in most TD's minds a far superior switcher than the Kayak. Bottom line. Many TD's (certainly myself) would be up the creek without a paddle when we walked into a truck and saw a Kayak. I personally don't want to walk into a truck and see a Kayak. - Dave Armini

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"][quote="Mike Cumbo"]One thing to consider is that FSN and the Big Ten are building several trucks for their new Big Ten Conference network. They are equipping those trucks with Kayaks according to a source. So, Kayaks in trucks are coming to your area soon.[/quote] I truly wonder if they'll spend more in traveling a TD that is willing to work with them/run a Kayak. Also, when they're not doing Big Ten, expect them to try to pawn those trucks off on their RSNs.[/quote] Lou, please read my post in the TD section of this site about MTVG's plans for the trucks. As for Hiawatha, I did a Tigers series in that truck, just before the truck went to Philly and Rick's usage. That truck is well done but production did mention the smallish monitor wall. (They are used to an expando with a larger wall.)

[quote="Mongo"]I wanted to bump this topic back up because my boss informed me last week that we're looking to take our truck HD in the next year, and he's looking at a Kayak, mainly because of it's size and cost. I sent him the link to this topic so he could see the general consensus of the TD's out there in the "real world". I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions for a "smallish" truck (30 foot box, no expander, yet) for an HD switcher. Even if there's some creative way to squeeze a Kalypso in, I'd like to hear it.[/quote] The Kahuna has a small frame and small panels that would easily fit in a truck. There's a rental house in Florida that has a few Kahunas in flight packs that go all over the place. You should take a look at the Snell box for a truck. Irv

Whatever you do, do not have your engineers purchase a Kayak! You WILL be sorry and you'll pull out whatever hair you may have left! I'm tired of hearing about cost of this or that! They have enough money, and if push came to shove, they would find a way to get what works and come up with whatever difference there maybe! It doesn't make sense to purchase something like the Kayak that is old technology repackaged! As I'm sure you read in this forum, this switcher is a redesign of the "failed" DD35 & XTenDD Philips switcher that they tried to market in this country. The Kayak is NOT a Grass Valley product per se and it was designed by German engineers who are no operators. The Kayak is a terrible switcher plain and simple! The only thing that wlll change that is a complete redesign of the operating software and that is not going to happen. No matter what, if price is really the issue and you can get a Sony, that would be the next choice if money is the real issue. The learning curve is much less than the Kayak, which is not user friendly at all. The Sony's were designed to operate very similiar to the Kalypso so training will take less time. As for Mike comments about the Big 10 Trucks, well I don't want to start a war here, but that we know the purchase of equipment for those trucks was done because of cost and only cost! How do you build a HD truck with no HD tape machines??? I hate to see what those shows will look like when they begin to staff those events with Kayaks onboard. There will be plenty of dissolves!!!!!! I won't mention any names here and I don't wish to insult anyone, but that company has always taken the cheap way out in everything they have purchased and while they may be "okay" trucks for a regional show, they are truly not up to network standards. If your going to do it, at least do it right - that is all I'm saying! As for rearranging the truck .... if space is an issue then the solution could be to place production front-to-back which is how NMT's HD1 and other trucks are configured. That might work better for you! I was on Token Creek's Hiawatha recently. I did a network show in it and it performed very well. Space was a little tight but it was ok. Good luck ... hopefully you can enlighten your boss to the true facts!

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]One thing to consider is that FSN and the Big Ten are building several trucks for their new Big Ten Conference network. They are equipping those trucks with Kayaks according to a source. So, Kayaks in trucks are coming to your area soon.[/quote] I truly wonder if they'll spend more in traveling a TD that is willing to work with them/run a Kayak. Also, when they're not doing Big Ten, expect them to try to pawn those trucks off on their RSNs.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]One thing to consider is that FSN and the Big Ten are building several trucks for their new Big Ten Conference network. They are equipping those trucks with Kayaks according to a source. So, Kayaks in trucks are coming to your area soon.[/quote] I truly wonder if they'll spend more in traveling a TD that is willing to work with them/run a Kayak. Also, when they're not doing Big Ten, expect them to try to pawn those trucks off on their RSNs.

Mongo, Corplex Copper and Token Creek Hiawatha both have Kalypsos. The specs can be found here : One thing to consider is that FSN and the Big Ten are building several trucks for their new Big Ten Conference network. They are equipping those trucks with Kayaks according to a source. So, Kayaks in trucks are coming to your area soon.

The primary purpose of our truck is for sports, (mainly basketball) for a "mid-major" university sports network. While our shows aren't as complicated as ESPN, they're getting pretty close. Usually I'm the TD, but there are occasions that the truck is rented by another network, and a freelancer is hired. For those reasons I want to stick with either Sony or Grass. Narrowing it down further, I'm shying away from the Sony because we have a Kalypso HD in the studio, and our staff has it hard enough trying to find time to train on one brand, let alone 2. We're replacing a Zodiak 2.5 ME, so backing up to a 2 ME Kalypso isn't likely (although I probably could do everything we do now with it, but there would be no room to grow). Another factor is, as always, the cost. Management doesn't want to pay for a Kalypso, which made me think we could put a Kayak in the studio and move the Kalypso to the truck. That leaves the issue of real estate. We don't often have 3 people on the front bench, but when we do, it's awfully cozy. Add another foot or so of switcher, and I might be asking the director to hit "run" for me! The truck is standard width, AFAIK, so is there a better way to situate the panel? We'll be totally gutting the production area, so rearranging may not be a problem. It goes side-to-side now, but would arranging it front-to-back make a difference? We'll be adding plasmas for our monitor wall, so that'll gain some space for us, too. I haven't seen many trucks this size, so Mike, what trucks have you seen that have a Kalypso squeezed into a non-expander? Thanks all

[quote="Mongo"]I wanted to bump this topic back up because my boss informed me last week that we're looking to take our truck HD in the next year, and he's looking at a Kayak, mainly because of it's size and cost. I sent him the link to this topic so he could see the general consensus of the TD's out there in the "real world". I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions for a "smallish" truck (30 foot box, no expander, yet) for an HD switcher. Even if there's some creative way to squeeze a Kalypso in, I'd like to hear it.[/quote] One common space saver is that no matter what you buy (with minor exceptions), the DVEs are internal to the switcher ... this will help save some space if you are coming from an older system that hogs-up rack space. (Thank goodness they never tried to squeeze an old ADO in any of the trucks I've been in!) Here's a few positive spins on each of the switchers, as I see it: For the Sony 8000G, as Rick notes, there is a smaller frame available. Also, the control panel layout is fully user configurable, so that might play into making some adjustments to fit into a smaller space. The Kayak has great macro ability, so you *might* be able to get away with less than 4 M/Es. I've been frustrated when running the Kayak, but am starting to see the light. :-) My frustration comes from not really being a Philips DD TD, and that's pretty much the heritage of the Kayak. The Kalypso, well, you know what you'd be getting. It does have a big footprint, so space is most likely the issue with this one. They do make a 2 M/E panel, but I don't see an advantage to that, especially in a truck that needs to be versatile. While there are some other HD switchers out there (Ross Synergy, S&W Kahuna), I think that one other thing to consider is who would be running the switcher. If it is difficult for your crewing folks to find a freelance TD to run somthing not as common as a Kalypso or the Sony 8000, that should play into the decision, too. Primarily, the pace and the complexity of your shows will most likely be the driving force. Hope my 2 cents helps... Matt

[quote="Mongo"]I wanted to bump this topic back up because my boss informed me last week that we're looking to take our truck HD in the next year, and he's looking at a Kayak, mainly because of it's size and cost. I sent him the link to this topic so he could see the general consensus of the TD's out there in the "real world". I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions for a "smallish" truck (30 foot box, no expander, yet) for an HD switcher. Even if there's some creative way to squeeze a Kalypso in, I'd like to hear it.[/quote] Sony makes a small-frame version of the 8000G and you won't have to comprimse on things like split M/E or hanging a PC with special software on the panel to get advanced functions. RE

[quote="Mongo"]I wanted to bump this topic back up because my boss informed me last week that we're looking to take our truck HD in the next year, and he's looking at a Kayak, mainly because of it's size and cost. I sent him the link to this topic so he could see the general consensus of the TD's out there in the "real world". I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions for a "smallish" truck (30 foot box, no expander, yet) for an HD switcher. Even if there's some creative way to squeeze a Kalypso in, I'd like to hear it.[/quote] First, who uses your truck? If the truck only supports your company's productions and you use the same people (either staff or the same freelancers) then any box that has the capabilities should work. If you need to do shows for paying clients, using random freelancers, then things get more interesting. Sony does make a small frame 8000, you might find more info at Sony's web site. As for squeezing a Kalypso into a small truck, is your truck standard width? There are at least two in non-expanding trucks that I have used. The control panel does limit the producer and director's space a bit.

[quote="Mongo"]I wanted to bump this topic back up because my boss informed me last week that we're looking to take our truck HD in the next year, and he's looking at a Kayak, mainly because of it's size and cost. I sent him the link to this topic so he could see the general consensus of the TD's out there in the "real world". I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions for a "smallish" truck (30 foot box, no expander, yet) for an HD switcher. Even if there's some creative way to squeeze a Kalypso in, I'd like to hear it.[/quote] Sony makes a small-frame version of the 8000G and you won't have to comprimse on things like split M/E or hanging a PC with special software on the panel to get advanced functions. RE

I wanted to bump this topic back up because my boss informed me last week that we're looking to take our truck HD in the next year, and he's looking at a Kayak, mainly because of it's size and cost. I sent him the link to this topic so he could see the general consensus of the TD's out there in the "real world". I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions for a "smallish" truck (30 foot box, no expander, yet) for an HD switcher. Even if there's some creative way to squeeze a Kalypso in, I'd like to hear it.

[quote="JohnK"]Once again, I would like to thank you all for the feedback. We've decided to install 3 Kalypso's into the DX trucks in question (DX-5, DX-7, and DX-16). 2 are new, and one is a classic. As to pricing, I'm afraid I can't comment on that, but would gladly engage in a phone conversation on the topic. My office number in California is 510-724-1802. Safe travels... John Kemps, VP Engineering, NMT.[/quote] Well, I'm glad you listened to us, and seeing as how I see DX5 around the SF Bay Area often, I'll be happy when it gets upgraded with a Kalypso; especially knowing that I may have had just a little bit of help in making sure that a Kalypso goes into it. By the way, I love HD11, bring it into SF more often (I'm happy with HD10 too, but it's a Sony, & I prefer a Kalypso). --- Dan

Once again, I would like to thank you all for the feedback. We've decided to install 3 Kalypso's into the DX trucks in question (DX-5, DX-7, and DX-16). 2 are new, and one is a classic. As to pricing, I'm afraid I can't comment on that, but would gladly engage in a phone conversation on the topic. My office number in California is 510-724-1802. Safe travels... John Kemps, VP Engineering, NMT.

[quote="Rick Tugman"]PS: (the only improvment that needs immediate attention for the Kalypso would be having the ability to edit macros)[/quote] Absolutely! And partial keyframing! But I wouldn't expect to ever get macro editing on the Kalypso... see the 2nd to the last post here:

[quote="Ed Collins"]Rick: You bring up some great points. Fact of the matter is, most all of us would rather have a Kalypso, but money might dictate some things. I'm in Grass Valley right now and have been talking to the folks out here about the postings on this site as well as what I've heard from other TDs. If NMT (and others) decide to go with the Kayak then we (TDs) need to figure out how to do our shows on the Kayak. I'm looking for suggestions as to what it will take to get folks up to speed. Training would be a great thing, but how many folks would be interested in getting trained and where are folks willing to go to get trained? How many days of training would be ideal, etc., etc. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. As always, this site is also a great place to share tips, warnings, complaints, etc. The folks at Grass do listen and I'll make sure they keep listening![/quote] Hi again Ed: Thanks for your reply and posting again. I'm happy to further my education and train as I'm sure any other TD's would gladly do given the opportunity and the proper time needed for training. But that is only part of the problem. Many of the people posting here were trained and trained by Helge and they still are pulling out their hair trying to do simple things on the Kayak. I don't think it is a good business model for NMT (or anyone else) to buy a switcher, then train people to try and operate something that is plagued with problems. That isn't why they are in business. They need to keep studios up and running and trucks out and working as much as possible as well all know. That task just became impossible on certain types of shows with the DD35 & XtenDD! Why in anyone's right mind would they want to return to that to save a few bucks.... that in itself isn't good business! I for one am glad your at Grass Valley and that you are speaking with them about the postings here. Something you might want to drill into their heads is that some of us (as operators), will do everything possible to make sure the Kayak and other switchers in development change! It's evident from the postings here that the Kayak is too complicated and problematic. The reason is simple, and for what I have already stated as I truly hate to keep repeating myself. The Kayak is nothing more than a "re-design" of a failed switcher (in this country) plain and simple! Thompson/Grass Valley need to understand that! For Thompson/Grass Valley to reintroduce and repackage the Kayak as something new is just appalling. This is not new technology and it's user interface is still un-friendly as was it's predecessors the DD35 and the XtenDD. Nothing has changed except this now being more complicated to navigate through and program. It might have the name Grass Valley on it, but it is no Grass Valley product and we all know it is the same Weiderstadt German design engineers that think they have a better mouse trap as they try to force this down our throats. I am not fooled by a demo with canned effects or anything else. I only care what it takes to program real time effects in the real world given the amount of time we have these days to program our shows. Please don't take my criticism to heart, it's not any against you or even the marketing people. I understand you all have a job to do, but as an operator, the Kayak and it's software (as it stands today) are not ready for Primetime! History should not repeat itself... the Kayak is just a continuation of a bad design which is just too complicated for everyday sports and studio use. Any company who is considering purchasing a Kayak or anything new that may come down the pike from Grass Valley with software with architecture which is based upon the DD35/XtenDD would just be fooling themselves. They won't have operators to run this equipment because it just isn't logical. It just wasn't designed for operators and doing things quickly. I'm sure training would help, but there are better products on the market today that are more intuitive and more like the Kalypso in their ease of use. TD's need functionality along with a menu system that is easy to navigate, edit and program.... and the Kalypso has it! I hope you can make Grass Valley understand that! PS: (the only improvment that needs immediate attention for the Kalypso would be having the ability to edit macros)

I have had several opportunities to TD on the Kayak. Some of them more successful than others. But I would classify none of them as the worst show I've ever done. My only complaint about the Kayak is the lack of opportunities to train. If a truck company wants to put a Kayak in their truck, I have no problem with that. However, if they do not offer the opportunity to their TD's to receive training, then I agree with Rick. They are likely going to find their trucks sitting around if a client gets word that it has a switcher that causes TD's to yell obscenities all day. I have been to Grass Valley and taken a training course. (someone else paid, thank goodness) The course was excellent and the Grass Valley facility is great. I have also been through training on GVG products at installation sites. Those experiences were not as good. The trainer either knew everything about the switcher, but had no idea how to teach, or was an editor who had no idea how to use the switcher in a live setting. However, I did learn in each of these settings. When Sony launched the 8/9000 series they did a road show training/demo of their switchers. They set up several switchers in fly packs and did demos and training at the same time. Potential buyers got to see the product being used by the people who would actually use them. I thought it worked well, for one simple reason. The potential buyer saw that people could actually operate this switcher. All this said, if NMT or any other company wants to use the Kayak, they should take advantage of the on site training GVG offers. Set the truck up for a couple of days of training, bring in a few TD's and train them. They can then go out and train other users. Personally I can't afford to go out to Grass and take a week of training. I wish I could. The upfront cost of a truck company setting up training sessions and training users to train others will pay off in skilled TD's and happy clients. Happy punching! Scott

Rick: You bring up some great points. Fact of the matter is, most all of us would rather have a Kalypso, but money might dictate some things. I'm in Grass Valley right now and have been talking to the folks out here about the postings on this site as well as what I've heard from other TDs. If NMT (and others) decide to go with the Kayak then we (TDs) need to figure out how to do our shows on the Kayak. I'm looking for suggestions as to what it will take to get folks up to speed. Training would be a great thing, but how many folks would be interested in getting trained and where are folks willing to go to get trained? How many days of training would be ideal, etc., etc. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. As always, this site is also a great place to share tips, warnings, complaints, etc. The folks at Grass do listen and I'll make sure they keep listening!

[quote="Ed Collins"]I think Rick's assement of the DD35 as a "failure' was a bit harsh. Yes, it was not popular, but is was capable. I did ESPN College World Series and MLB on the ExtenDD and Monday Night Football was, of course, done on an ExtenDD. Sorry Rick. I'm sure you mean that it was a failure because it was not popular. When its all said and done it does (unfortunately) come down to the almighty dollar![/quote] Hi Ed: Hope your doing well. No offense taken.... I just call it as I see it and while my comment may have been a little harsh with regards to the DD35 & ExtenDD, the fact still remains that the switcher was not popular for many reasons and this I totally agree with you on. Like I said, it wasn't a bad switcher, it was just a bad user interface and that was it's downfall.... that is just a fact! I am in agreement with you that if the Kayak could program more easlly (with the state of the emem) and then you could then simply build your transitions & triggers whether it be with macros or a simple timeline execution, then it would be a better switcher. Beleive me, I wish it was that simple, but that doesn't seem to be the case anywhere. Thompson/GVG should have made the Kayak just a little more "Kalypso like" and used what was truly great from previous Grass Valley products instead of "re-packaging" something that was not so popular in this country. But the way it is right now, it is not a switcher for everyday use which you also make mention of. NMT or any other company needs to consider a set/shoot & strike show with the (excuse the term) pool of TD's that are currently staffing trucks in various markets around the country. PLEASE don't read anything into my last statement other than it would be more beneficial if the Kayak software was more user friendly and more like the other Grass Valley's that have been so successful for their ease of programming. All the shows you mentioned that either used the DD35 or the ExtenDD all had multiple set up days and were used multiple times by some very talented TD's like yourself, who had time to work with the switcher. Most of those TD's liked the Philips for their own personal reasons, but that is not what is at issue. The issue is simply programming the Kayak and that is where the problem lies. You yourself said you would take a Kalypso any day over a Kayak. While the almighty dollar might make the Kayak more attractive, it's not good business to have your fleet sit making no money while someone else gets the work because a switcher was just too difficult to program and get simple effects running as many have stated here.

[quote="JohnK"]Thanks for all of the feedback on this topic. NMT plans to update 3 SD trucks this year (from 4K's to something else), and because there are many opinions out there, we are trying to listen to as many of them as we can. John Kemps VP of Engineering, NMT[/quote] John just curious can you supply some pricing info. I am curious if you match up one for one inputs/outputs, ME's, DME/DVE's, and any other options (chroma keyers), how much difference is the pricing between the Kalypso, Kayak, 8K, etc thanks Bill

Okay, if I've got a choice of a Kalypso and a Kayak I'll take the Kalypso any day. If pressed into it the Kayak can certainly handle a big percentage of the sports shows out there. The big issue is - of course - the single-day set/shoot with very little time to program. Mostly this comes down to how familiar you are with the Kayak. Yes, the e-mems program differently than the Kalypso - DVEs for example are separate from the M/E's timeline - just like programming an external DVE. One thing that can make things much simpler in programming is to learn an e-mem with all the parameters needed for the effect then macro the rest of the effect. So, an e-mem would recall the current state of the M/E and the macro would recall the e-mem and then perform the functions that the timeline would otherwise control - say insert a key then play a DDR then do an undercut. I've found this type of programming to be more predictable when you're coming from the traditional "Grass" way. I think Rick's assement of the DD35 as a "failure' was a bit harsh. Yes, it was not popular, but is was capable. I did ESPN College World Series and MLB on the ExtenDD and Monday Night Football was, of course, done on an ExtenDD. Sorry Rick. I'm sure you mean that it was a failure because it was not popular. When its all said and done it does (unfortunately) come down to the almighty dollar!

Thanks for all of the feedback on this topic. NMT plans to update 3 SD trucks this year (from 4K's to something else), and because there are many opinions out there, we are trying to listen to as many of them as we can. John Kemps VP of Engineering, NMT

[quote="Matt Chirdon"]I have also heard that MMT out of colorado is putting them in the new trucks they're building for the Big Ten Network. I've been a freelance TD for a number of years and I work at a station that has a Kayak. I think the Kayak could totally be sufficient for most medium range shows provided a couple of things; The engineers have to be properly trained on them. My worst fear is going into a truck with a Kayak, asking the EIC where the sidepanel is, and getting a bewildered look. Also, TDs may have to rethink how they set up a show. For example, I use macros for many of the things I would use timelines for on a 4K/kalypso. Due to the lack of real estate on the switcher and the fact that I don't care for the E-mem structure, I set it up almost like I'm switching a dual feed on a Kalypso. It doesn't take any longer to do, it's just different. The fact is that the price point of the Kayak is really attractive to the people buying equipment, so it's probably going to get better market penetration than the DD35 did.[/quote] Typical of MMT. They'll find themselves in a situation much like the HDNet's Snell and Wilcox switcher truck. Where they have one generic setup that someone built, and each new TD cheats off of that person's bastardized setup built just to get you through a show. Very basic moves, and nothing that would have any creativity whatsoever. As proven over and over in this thread, it's just not worth anyone's time to learn the Kayak, and no one has the time to sit down and set it up. I also doubt Kayak clients such as Big Ten Network would ever dream of paying for a set day to get that thing working. Why is it all the decent mobile companies understand that an ***industry standard*** Kalypso is simply the cost of doing business. NMT and MMT would never think of outfitting all their trucks with Doremi Labs servers in lieu of EVS', a Compix instead of a Chyron Duet, or even 20x lens vs. 70, 80 & 100x lenses, then why do they try skimping on switchers that aren't industry standard? If NMT is looking to make a come back they have to do it with trucks like HD 7/HD 8, now SS 27/28. They were really in a rut where they were two companies. One with great HD trucks and outstanding Engineering staff, and another that had horrible Analog and SD trucks that were the laughing stock of the industry. You make that comeback with Kalypsos, not Kayaks.

[quote="EricG"]A better question might be, would you rather see a Sony 8000 (even one of the scaled-down versions of it) or a Kayak?[/quote] SONY 8000!!!! I was on a 1.5 ME Sony 8K just last night, for an NHL Playoff game (dual feed for a Playoff game? yes), & I'll take that over a 4ME Kayak any day. --- Dan

[quote="mtiffee"]Would you rather work on a 3000/4000 or a Kayak[/quote] I think that's sort of an apples and oranges question... it kind of depends on what show you're being asked to switch. If you're doing a show that can be easily handled by a 4K + DVEous, it's probably a no-brainer that most guys would prefer the 4K. That may be because we're more comfortable with the 4K, but that fact is irrelevant when you're a truck company tryin to rent out a truck. That said, if it's a more complex show that would REQUIRE the extended capabilities of the Kayak... sure, I'll take the Kayak, but only because the only other choice offered in this hypothetical situation can't handle what's required in the show. A better question might be, would you rather see a Sony 8000 (even one of the scaled-down versions of it) or a Kayak?