Thanks, Scott...I've done that method before... So there's no reason to think the Kayak can't do that. Not that I would want to, since I'll be working on a 300 for the BTN. That's why I was asking about layered mode. But if it can't, it can't...and I'll find a way around it. Like burning 3 keyers on ME2, since there's no DVEous on board, and all CG will have to come off the front channel. Been there... Mike, any other major limitations you can alert me to?

Scott, your method works except when you use a Sony 7000 and the scorebug, actually an iNFiNiT that day, the key signal for was rather thin where the clocks should have been. Someone in Graphics failed to make the CG backup elements look the same as the scorebug did. We were barely able to see the clocks. With a true layered mode, like on a GVG box, each channel of DVE would have added its own key signal to the CG's key signal.

You don't necessarily have to use layered mode to key another ME. If you are building a backup bug on ME1, do this. Key 1 - Game Clock Key 2 - Shot clock Key 3 - Score Box Put your keyer priority so that the score bug is on bottom. Size your clocks Key all three signals over black. Rekey this ME in your Game cut ME as a split key with the hole cutter being your score bug key signal. The advantage to this method is that when the score box operator flies the box out, the clocks also disappear. Depending on how you set it up, this does not necessarily happen when keying in layered mode. This works on any switcher regardless of its layering ability. Grass Valley 300 anyone? Here is the bad part if you do this on a Kayak 300. If you have to build this back up bug on ME1, where are you going to do your replays? ME1? Nope! Already using it for the bug. I guess I'll replay downstream. Not my favorite way to do it, but it works. What about split screens and double boxes. Ooh, I hope they buy DPM's for the DSK's! As far as the button change if you run it in GVG or DD mode. We aren't talking about just a couple of buttons. It is a whole blister pack of about 75-100 buttons. Happy Punching! Scott

Not being intentionally obtuse here, but are you saying I can't take, say, ME1 A bus with K3 and K4 on, and us it as the key for ME3 K4? I'd just be selecting ME1 as the source for that keyer, but the Kayak won't do that? Or is it just the B bus with keys?

The 3k was the first GVG switcher that allowed you to use "Layered" mode. On a 3k you could take ME1, for example, and you would hit a soft key in a menu and then not only are the two keyers available to you but also the A and B buses too. Yep, the A and B bus become keyers and the entire ME then could be keyed anywhere else. If I was using a 3k/4k, I would use ME1 as my backup bug. I would turn on Layered mode and create the "oh no..." backup up there. On a Kalypso I would use ME1 secondary to create the backup, turning on the Layered mode. In both cases I would re-enter the backup into my camera cut ME if it was needed.

One of the big differences between DD and GVG mode is the way timelines are built. For example, inserting a keyframe in DD places the new KF BEFORE the cursor, instead of after as in GVG. It's mentioned in the manual, but there's a lot of info to wade thru... I don't have much info on how BTN will set up the games as far as equipment...I'm just trying to cover all my bases. So Mike, I'm a little unclear about what you mean by "lack of layered mode". Do you mean double take or split ME? We don't have that on our Kalypso in our studio, so I've never used it.

Mongo, the lack of layered mode bugs me when I think of building a backup bug. On a Kalypso I would burn keyers 3 and 4 on say ME 2 and use TE's to position the clock and then re-enter that layer into my camera cut ME, ME3. It seems that MTVG wants them run in DD mode and I do not know what functions change. My biggest concern that day was making sure everything worked and I could get on air. IF they are treating this network the way they should, you should have a bug box. The bug can do so much more then you get when you tie the Duet up.

It states on their website that you can request GVG mode in advance...are they too lazy to change the buttons? I've never touched a Kayak, so which would be easier, DD or GVG mode? I'm used to having DPMs on the ME keyers (I've used a Zodiak 2.5 for several years)...actually having one on K1 on P/P is a bonus! What concerns me is if we'll have a score bug, I'll have to burn 2 more keyers for the clocks (game and play) if it doesn't interface...

17HDX-S has a side panel computer. I think the other two trucks were being setup that way as well. They give the TD two monitors/keyboards/mice, for the switcher and ClipStore, rather then using a KVM and switching between the computers. It works well, but at least twice I grabbed the wrong mouse. It was suggested that I use DD mode and I did. If what I was told is accurate, GVG mode causes some of the E-Mem buttons to change functionality and without new key caps it could get confusing. One thing, the Kayak I used had nine channels of DPM. Four channels were assigned to each of the MEs and one was assigned to PGM/PST. The one assigned to PST/PST was tied to keyer #1. We could not change that. I am not sure if a DPM board is physically attached to that keyer or what but we could not move it to another keyer. Bring a USB thumb drive. There is a USB port on the panel and it is easy to save files. (both switcher and still store files.) I found one possible bug and Thompson was looking at it. When I was saving switcher files to my thumb drive the panel locked up. I was unable to change any buttons. I was told that they could not reproduce this burp in the lab but I had it happen at least twice, once while I was on air. (At least we were in break at the time....)

At least I'll have a set day to work out any issues. Mike, did you run it in GVG mode, and do they have a side panel?

Mongo, I did three MLB games on one of the Big Ten trucks and while the switcher isn't the best for MLB, the 3 ME swicther is PGM/PST and TWO MEs, the actual switcher doesn't suck. Yes it is different then what we are used to but I would have no trouble recommending it to someone who needs a good studio or small truck switcher, with certain limits. I do not think the Kayak would fly if put in a general use OB unit, like NMT/NCP/etc, but if say QVC or Comcast's CN8 needed a switcher, then it would work. (I know that CN8 has a Kalypso.)

The Big 10 Network is providing some training to TD's in the Indianapolis area. While I'm a bit apprehensive about using the Kayak, after looking thru the manual, it should do what I want it to do. I guess I'll find out Sept. 1!

pony power, not sure if you use Double Take or not or the Clip Cache on a Kalypso but I tend to. Those features make my day easier, how do you suggest someone duplicate these features on a Kayak?? Oh, not to mention being able to have some keyers layered.

For the price the Kayak will be making it into more and more trucks, yes there will be training issues, yes some clients are not going to like seeing it and yes the Kalipso is a more powerfull switcher but as with other gear (Chyron Duet being one of them) it is up to us the operators to find ways to set them up faster and make them do new things that grassvalley never dreamed could be done. I say bring on the Kayak I personally like some of the features, and think it could have real potential. Once companies like Fox start seeing them in trucks they will find ways to do all the extra stuff and in a couple of years who knows maybe the Kalipso will retire the same way the iNFiNiT! did.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]Rick, if you are using switcher based converters how do you then feed a router and the monitor wall? Say you are doing a show in 720p and the other show is 1080i and you want to take three or four cameras, common in today's world. Do you want to use the switcher frame and aux buses as the cross converters or would you rather use a dedicated unit? I know some people who use 8000 and Kalypso auzes to feed the monitor wall, rather then spend the money on DAs and a router.[/quote] I couldn't agree with you more. The proper place for conversion is OUTSIDE the switcher. But, there are those in the industry who think that a switcher with built-iin conversion will save them tons of time and make their job easier. I disagree, but that is why every product is different, I guess. The Sony 8000G does have one interesting feature called a monitor output. They are a group of 8 unprocessed outputs (meaning you can't put anything generated or manipulated by the switcher on them). Basically, they are just out spigots for inputs. But, since the format conversion happens on the input cards, you can send converted signals to these outputs like a 16x8 router without having to tie up aux busses. You can then use either the switcher's aux panel or aux bus remotes ot change them. RE

Rick, if you are using switcher based converters how do you then feed a router and the monitor wall? Say you are doing a show in 720p and the other show is 1080i and you want to take three or four cameras, common in today's world. Do you want to use the switcher frame and aux buses as the cross converters or would you rather use a dedicated unit? I know some people who use 8000 and Kalypso auzes to feed the monitor wall, rather then spend the money on DAs and a router.

[quote="Les"]The Kayak has MatchDef. Every group of 24 inputs has 4 Scalling inputs at the end if they buy that option. They would be better off in that instance to do the conversion outboard and get a true Conversion. Evertz, Harris, Miranda, etc all make really good converters.[/quote] Are you saying that the converters in the Kayak are low-end? RE

The Kayak has MatchDef. Every group of 24 inputs has 4 Scalling inputs at the end if they buy that option. They would be better off in that instance to do the conversion outboard and get a true Conversion. Evertz, Harris, Miranda, etc all make really good converters.

Doesn't the Kayak do cross conversion? I think it has XX of inputs that will do so, like the Sony and Kahuna Bill