I wouldn't worry about the Kayak, I'd be worried about getting another gig. The Kayak can be tackled with some practice, unemployment is a bigger problem to me.

The engineering department just spec'd out a Kayak for live news production and expects to use it with Ignite in a year or two. Having never seen one of these in action what am I looking forward to as a current Sony 8000 user? Brian

Thanks for all your input Rick, Mike, Eric, Scott, and the rest. We do hear you. We'll do our best! Happy Transitions! Rick

From a semi-outside point of view... Sounds like all would be solved if TGV would not sell Kayaks to trucks! I know...won't happen. So are we directing our displeasure with the Kayak to the correct folks? Seems the responses from studio TD's are happy enough, but the "Remote" TD's have issues. With many stations now using Dir/TDs, simple small/medium stations with a "preset look" could take advantage of the Kayak. But us LIVE "on the fly" TD's cannot be happy with this switcher. Basically it seems to be the accounting/owners trying to put in a cheaper switcher. So if I were are a responsible salesman, I would steer a truck away from this switcher. Yes it can do "Your look" but it takes 20 steps instead of 2. All the buyer hears is that it can be done. The responses from the TGV folks seem to talk about the Kayak in a studio setup, where the TDs are talking remote sports, we are not on the same page. Guess it's like using a basketball to play baseball. Yes, it's a ball and you can throw it, hit it... it just does not go as far into the outfield. But it is a ball. On the accountants spreadsheet it just says "BALL" $70K instead of "BALL" $150K. Anyway... as my Dad always said, use the right tool for the job! My penny's worth. Sorry if it seems obvious. Scott

[quote="Rick Paulson"]In the interest of accuracy, an important element of this forum in my opinion, I'd like to respond to some specific comments. The Kayak was not designed for automation. Its core software design was done long before the switcher was considered for the video processing engine of Ignite. However, its control architecture does lend itself nicely to integration into the Ignite news production system[/quote] I don't want to start a back and forth thing here Rick, but if your speaking of accuracy let's be honest here. True the core software was designed "before", but the Kayak is the switcher being used for automation as you admit to and that is where it is being placed the most. From T/GV's own literature and press releases (January 25, 2005): Quote: Thomson Launches Grass Valley Ignite Integrated Production System Delivering First and Most Complete Link between News and Control Rooms "The scalable Ignite line includes everything customers need for digital production, including remotely controlled, broadcast-quality Grass Valley CameraMan? and LDK 300 cameras, Grass Valley KayakDD? digital video production switcher, the Grass Valley Concerto? routing switcher, analog and digital audio mixing/processing, and Thomson's advanced automation control software. The Ignite line embodies this approach, letting users efficiently produce and air live news and entertainment programming with only one or two operators." end Quote: [quote="Rick Paulson"]If someone calls me a liar in a public forum, I expect them to have facts back up their claim. I don't believe this is the case here. I have no intention of lying or spreading misinformation in this forum. It's been our experience that users who have had proper training are happy with the switcher and frequently mention how impressed they are with its power. It's a fact.[/quote] I didn't call you a liar, but that facts are the facts and your statement is not accurate when you speak of "proper training and people being happy." There are plenty of people in this forum who were trained and have had plenty of time on the switcher and they continue to have complaints and operational problems which you totally side stepped here. Instead of taking to corporate approach, why don't you address the issues and complaints that are in this forum? [quote="Rick Paulson"]"Thomson" is a French company that owns high-tech businesses all over the world, including Grass Valley Inc., with engineering/development sites in both Germany and California.[/quote] Where is Weiterstadt? not to be a wise guy, but it's in GERMANY! That's where the Kayak CORE software was developed! People in California might have built the Kayak, but the complaints are about it's user interface, which is the software that was designed in Germany for the Kayak! [quote="Rick Paulson"]Kayak is only one of the switchers we build. Our customers have a broader choice with Grass Valley, and we're just as happy with a Kalypso sale as a Kayak sale. These are not the last switchers we will ever build. Please don't be too quick to write our epitaph. We have no intention of going away, no intention of resting on our laurels, and every intention to continue to raise the bar by developing production switchers that improve TV production value, and help our customers succeed.[/quote] I'm well aware of the switchers you build. But again, the complaint is only about the Kayak and the transition from 3000 ---> 4000 ---> Kalypso as it relates to software. Why is T/GV so against continuing in the same direction that made it so successful and continue on that same course with the Kayak? Rick, I'm not saying anything that isn't true here and I fully understand your position in regards to towing the corporate line. But, what each one of the TD's that frequent this forum have made very clear is that TD's need functionality, and a switcher/software that is easy to program. The Kalypso has that and now with the adaption of the DD core software in the Kayak, that task has now become more difficult. I believe when you speak of "improving TV production value, and helping your customers succeed" you speak of the switcher and what it can do for the cost. That is all well and good but it's important not to lose sight of the limitations that are put on the people who now have to program your budget switcher. All we are saying is, we want a product that doesn't take us hours to program what used to take us minutes. That is not raising the bar... it's taking a huge step backwards.

In the interest of accuracy, an important element of this forum in my opinion, I'd like to respond to some specific comments. [quote="Rick Tugman"]You know as well as I do that the switcher was designed for automation and there are even more problems with that than you'll admit to in a public forum like this.[/quote] The Kayak was not designed for automation. Its core software design was done long before the switcher was considered for the video processing engine of Ignite. However, its control architecture does lend itself nicely to integration into the Ignite news production system. I'm not the Ignite product manager and don't have the numbers, but I know there are many successful installations today, world-wide. [quote="Rick Tugman"]Your statement claiming to have experience that "with training, users are happy with the switcher" is just not true and you know it.[/quote] If someone calls me a liar in a public forum, I expect them to have facts back up their claim. I don't believe this is the case here. I have no intention of lying or spreading misinformation in this forum. It's been our experience that users who have had proper training are happy with the switcher and frequently mention how impressed they are with its power. It's a fact. [quote="Rick Tugman"]Everything Grass Valley built up for years will be gone in a few short years because of the Thompson German arrogance.[/quote] "Thomson" is a French company that owns high-tech businesses all over the world, including Grass Valley Inc., with engineering/development sites in both Germany and California. Kayak is only one of the switchers we build. Our customers have a broader choice with Grass Valley, and we're just as happy with a Kalypso sale as a Kayak sale. These are not the last switchers we will ever build. Please don't be too quick to write our epitaph. We have no intention of going away, no intention of resting on our laurels, and every intention to continue to raise the bar by developing production switchers that improve TV production value, and help our customers succeed. [quote="Rick Tugman"]If it wasn't for me saying something about T/GV and that arrogance earlier in this forum, I feel you still would have been quiet.[/quote] As stated before, we consider this forum yours. We are one of the sponsors of this site and refrain from using it to promote our product. We were being criticized for not listening, and recognized that it's important that members know that we are. I appreciate the constructive criticism. I know this forum will continue to focus on helping this community of technical artists succeed.

I find it amusing that defenders of this switcher admit to its shortcomings, and then proceed to still declare that although it's not as good as an MVS-8000 or a Kalypso, it's not a "crappy switcher". The problem is, it's being sold to places and used in locations that normally, in this switcher's absence, would absolutely have to go with one of the above switchers, and the reality is, the Kayak is not even in the league of those two products. When we say "crappy switcher", we're referring to its inferiority when being used in one of those situations. If you're on a show where nothing but cutting cameras is involved, it's a FINE switcher, and I'll be the first to say it! The problem arises because as TD's, we all know how this switcher is being sold by the salesmen - "Oh sure, it's not a Kalypso, our flagship product, but it's more than capable of doing what you need it for! And look how much $$$ you'll be saving! Now sign the check, please." All the little piddling arguments about which features it has, which it doesn't, how well it does them, are moot when taken by themselves. The only thing that matters is the big picture: how does this switcher stand up to the ones that came before it when asked to do similar shows? The answer is, it doesn't. No amount of apologizing for the little things it can't do will change that, nor will using "you're not familiar enough with it" as an excuse, as Dan has very comprehensively pointed out.

[quote="Carl Johansson"]OK... This is just my view... I agree the Kayak is not a very good switcher for large shows and it is just meant for automation or smaller shows. BUT... The DD35 / XtnDD is a great switcher. Once you learn to program your timelines in the Sidepanel, it is real fast to work with. For example if go to a replay with one key/fill clip in and another clip out, that is setup in much less time than on a Kalypso, not having to send any "cue next" triggers etc to the Lance. Just insert PBUS register recalls anyhwere you want in the same timeline. Also doing things like go "with" or with out certain keys after a transition wipe (with PBUS) is easily done. No need to use GPI loopbacks etc. I know you could do this with macros on the Kalypso but I feel more safe doing it in timelines, not having to use macros and timelines for the same effect. Also the switchers are very flexible with the UPK's (User programmable keys). I agree the internal framestores and DVE's are no good. I never use them. But the DD / XtnDD switcher is not "crappy" in my opinion. OK.. That was my 5 cents... So.. bring it on! :-)[/quote] Hi Carl: How are you? I'm not going to bring it on, but in all honestly you said it yourself.... the internal framestores and DVE's are no good! That is part of what makes the switcher complete. Fine agreed, there is a lot of good things..... macros which can be edited etc., but the problem is in this country you have companies that buy the switcher and not all the options that make the switcher a complete switcher. Then these same companies market it as we have a Grass Valley Kalypso or Kayak or whatever and then you go in and try to do your job and you can't because the tools you need aren't there. In regards to the Kayak, some companies don't buy the Sidepanel so then what do you do??? How do you do your job? That is just part of what makes it CRAPPY! I too love doing things with timelines - but I like doing it on a complete switcher that has a friendly user interface, where it doesn't take me 2 hours to build a simple background DVE push along with a fill/key animation. =D

OK... This is just my view... I agree the Kayak is not a very good switcher for large shows and it is just meant for automation or smaller shows. BUT... The DD35 / XtnDD is a great switcher. Once you learn to program your timelines in the Sidepanel, it is real fast to work with. For example if go to a replay with one key/fill clip in and another clip out, that is setup in much less time than on a Kalypso, not having to send any "cue next" triggers etc to the Lance. Just insert PBUS register recalls anyhwere you want in the same timeline. Also doing things like go "with" or with out certain keys after a transition wipe (with PBUS) is easily done. No need to use GPI loopbacks etc. I know you could do this with macros on the Kalypso but I feel more safe doing it in timelines, not having to use macros and timelines for the same effect. Also the switchers are very flexible with the UPK's (User programmable keys). I agree the internal framestores and DVE's are no good. I never use them. But the DD / XtnDD switcher is not "crappy" in my opinion. OK.. That was my 5 cents... So.. bring it on! :-)

[quote="Rick Paulson"]Thanks all. I'm very interested in making needed improvements in the Kayak interface.[/quote] Rick Paulson, I hope you are "very interested in making improvements in the Kayak interface."... Because right now it stinks no matter what you say. I'm not trying to be rude, but as I have said time and time before, I'm not interested in what I see at NAB or even in a Demo.... that is not a real world experience. TD's needs functionality and ease of use and the Kayak is none of the above. [quote="Rick Paulson"]That said, Kayak has been a very successful switcher for us, with well over 2000 installed worldwide. Our experience has been that with training, users are happy with the switcher. That doesn't make it a Kalypso, but it's doing the job for many satisfied customers.[/quote] Are you kidding me... "successful switcher"! They are NOT successful in any truck environment and never will be the way T/GV is going. Let's be honrest here, I don't consider camera cuts or dissolves a successful installation with zero effects. It's only successful in your eyes because of it's price and sales pitch and demo to an unsuspecting customer that is not an operator. You know as well as I do that the switcher was designed for automation and there are even more problems with that than you'll admit to in a public forum like this. As Mike Cumbo wrote, he trained on a 1600/1680, 300 and up.... I did as well and I'm mostly self taught. For me it was an easy transition from one GV to another to the other and especially after learning the 3K, which changed in course of switchers. Transitioning from a 3/4K to the Kalypso was a breeze because of the friendly user interface! <--- (this is the key) - while macros are nice there is more to programming than a macro. I also trained in LA with Helge on the DD35 and immededitaly went to a DD35 show on the east coast in A35... let's put it it this way, after JUST training, it was a horrific experience and the show's set up should have gone a lot smoother than it did. Plenty of people have been trained by Helge and T/GV and the problems are still there for one reason and one reason only... the switchers software! It just isn't ready for Primetime and you just keep shoving this down our thoats when it just doesn't work. Do you really think trucking companies want to make that same mistake twice??? I truly believe MTVG will be biting off more that they can chew with the Kayak, but then again this is a price driven company and they don't care how much work you have to do. Again, the people making these decisions are not operators and the problem is we have to do that work in a limited amount of time, which is becoming more of a problem with the equipment they choose. What you don't seem to grasp is "EASE OF USE!"... The Kayak is a failure in that department as is the DD architecture. It is our responsibility to the other TDs who frequent this forum and the industry to get the word out in any way we can which I promise will continue to be done unless things change. I am about to email some colleagues to fight another Kayak installation for a truck in Florida for the reasons which are stated above. Your statement claiming to have experience that "with training, users are happy with the switcher" is just not true and you know it. You can't have someone complain when you eliminated their job because of automation! When you have people in this forum who claim they know the DD series and the Kayak saying it dos NOT belong in a truck, you had better sit up a listen! Dan Berger is a respected TD and very knowledgeable. He sees the switcher more than most of us. He is familiar with the DD35 and XtenDD plus took multiple training days on the Kayak. Why is it then that he is still having problems and saying the Kayak is a CRAPPY SWITCHER? What do you think is going to happen on the road with lesser experienced TDs?? Your wonderful Kayak WILL FALL to the same fate as the DD35 & XtenDD in the market and there won't be anything you can do about it because it will be too late. Everything Grass Valley built up for years will be gone in a few short years because of the Thompson German arrogance. If it wasn't for me saying something about T/GV and that arrogance earlier in this forum, I feel you still would have been quiet. I'm happy you wrote, but you have a real problem on your hands and you have to address it. I think I can speak for most in this forum that we are not interested in Germany and what they think is right. What they designed already FAILED in North America. When you speak of the truck market the bottom line is EASE OF USE (as it should be with any switcher) and being able to program quickly.... the DD architecture just can't do that and it never will. Do what you want with the switcher for automation as you put people out of work, but don't try to sell us a bill of goods that doesn't work for a remote environment. I too would have liked to see (as Eric said), the "continuing evolution in software ( 4000 ---> Kalypso ---> Kayak) rather than a completely different direction" that NEVER worked in this market. [quote="Rick Paulson"]It's clear that many out there worry that we may be headed in the wrong direction, and that we are not listening to you, the users. In fact, we're talking with lots of users out there.[/quote] Rick, I wonder what users you are talking to! I know I'm not one of them and I don't think the people who are contributing to this forum are included either. So what operators are you talking to that have the combined real world experience of the people in this forum? If your really listening, then you'll have to convince Germany that something has to be done quickly before they drive what is left of Grass Valley into the ground. Respectfully, Rick Tugman

Thanks all. I'm very interested in making needed improvements in the Kayak interface. Please take advantage of my posted email to provide me with any specific problems that you experience in working with the switcher, or call me. We've been taking notes, and I have a list of enhancements planned, but more feedback is always welcome. That said, Kayak has been a very successful switcher for us, with well over 2000 installed worldwide. Our experience has been that with training, users are happy with the switcher. That doesn't make it a Kalypso, but it's doing the job for many satisfied customers. Regarding DD vs Default mode, the "Default" mode was developed, as Dan mentions, to provide operational features familiar to the users more familiar with legacy GVG switchers. Either mode can be selected for either the Keyer subpanel or the E-MEM subpanel, or both. The differences in these modes are detailed in the User Manual, but as an example, in DD mode the keyframes always insert before the cursor. Default mode allows you to insert before or after, with after being the default. In DD mode, you must enter Edit mode to make changes to the effect. In Default mode any edit function puts you into edit mode. Now, because of the guts of the timeline there are some features you may be familiar with as Kalypso-like that are not possible, most noteable being that you can't insert a keyframe on the timeline without increasing the effect duration. Please have a look at the manual for more details on these modes for Keyers and E-MEM. All current product manuals are available for download. Please send me an email at richard.paulson@thomson.net and I'll send you links to our manuals download site, and also to the software download site. If you want to install SidePanel on your laptop or other networked computer, download the latest posted 6915.exe installation software. You'll want a fast connection, as this is a 257 MB file. This installer provides a choice to install SidePanel on your PC. If you're familiar with the XtenDD GUI, you'll know SidePanel. If not, you'll want to read the manual to get familiar with its structure and the higher-end features available there. Most features are now available in the control panel menu, but things like macro-editing are still in SidePanel. Regarding inserting a pause in a macro from the panel, here's an example of some of the good information you'll find in the manuals: "While recording a macro you can insert a pause. To do so press Rec and Del simultaneously (key delegate row). Now you can enter the time for the pause using the key pad in the Effect section..." If you can't find something in the manuals, let us know. BTW....we're working on a new feature for KayakHD, some of you may have seen it at NAB. This is a feature called Multi-mix, similar to what is available in XtenDD. It allows you to set different transition types, (mix, cut, wipe, DPM) for each component (keyers, backgrounds). Then you can, using the graphical representation of the transition profiles of each component, change the transition duration and timing of each component in the transition. This really simplifies building animated/flying key transitions, no E-MEM timeline required. Look for this in version 692 release planned for mid-August.

[quote="Matt Chirdon"]It seems like most of the complaints that the "Kayak isn't a real switcher" could easily fall under "I'm not familiar with the Kayak, so I'd rather not work on it" category.[/quote] Matt, I work on the Kayak 4-5 days a week at the #1 station in market #5 (I think SF is now #6, but who's counting), not a "small to mid-level station". I've gotten quite familiar with the switcher. I have worked on the Sony 7000 full-time, the GVG 4000 full-time, the Kalypso part-time, the Sony 8000 purely freelance, the XTen DD 3-5 times, the Snell & Wilcox (not the Kahuna yet) 5-8 times. I've said before in this forum, that I have had several days of manufacture training on the Kayak, the Kalypso, the 3/4K, and the Sony 8k. I have also talked about in this forum how it has taken me over an hour and a half to do a simple effect on the Kayak which would take me about 2 mins flat on any other switcher. I have to say that I have had quite a bit of experience on quite a few different switchers. I don't know about other's experience in this forum with different switchers, but from my from my professional experience & training, I can truly call the Kayak a CRAPPY SWITCHER. Does it have it's place, of course. But anyone who purchases one needs to know the consequences of buying a CRAPPY SWITCHER. Mike, DD mode vs. GVG mode... GVG mode was the result of TD's working on a GVG switcher and the Kayak not running like they are used to. GVG mode changes how the Emems work & other items which I'm not familiar with because I only run in GVG mode, cause I know I don't want to attempt to figure out what the German Engineers do in DD mode. You will want to run in GVG mode if you are used to GVG products. Also, on each of the E-mem panels there is a "Direct" button, make sure you have this turned on, it'll then feel more like a GVG product. Without Direct mode it makes you call up E-mems by typing in a 2-digit number then hitting "Enter," doesn't work in live sports. Rick, thank you for you sales pitch, it worked for KTVU in the #5 (or is it #6) market in the nation. Now find me a new job. --- Dan

Rick, another question. On the MTVG site it says this "Default of DD mode, TDs can request GVG mode in advance via crewer to EIC". Somewhere on this site, I couldn't find it there was an explanation but could you explain it again? What is "DD mode" vs "GVG mode"? Also, is there a URL for the op manual and if I brought my laptop how do I connect it to run the sidepanel software? Where do I find the software?

[quote="Matt Chirdon"]Macro pauses are available on the panel. Hold down the button "Ins-p" and you can select the length of pause you want.[/quote] Hang on there chief. I worked a basketball package on a DD-35, where there was a button (can't remember if it was labeled Ins-P but I think it was) to do exactly that, and if that button was on the Kayak panel that I was working on, I assure you I would've found it, given that that was exactly what I was looking for. I don't know if there's more than one version of the panel running around, but there certainly was no button labeled Ins-P on this one. I'd like to think I'm not a total moron. [quote="Matt Chirdon"]It seems like most of the complaints that the "Kayak isn't a real switcher" could easily fall under "I'm not familiar with the Kayak, so I'd rather not work on it" category. I totally understand not wanting to work on a switcher you're not very familiar with, that's why I don't work on Sonys. Is the Kayak a good live sports switcher? No. Should it be put in trucks that have a bunch of different TDs working on it. No. But that's a different argument than just saying it's a "crappy switcher."[/quote] Okay, maybe there's a little hyperbole there. But I'm going to tear apart your argument with your own point. You mention you don't like working on Sonys because you're not familiar with them - I used to not be familiar with Sonys, and the first time I saw an 8000 was when I took a job with a set day to ensure I could get everything running smoothly, and now I love that switcher. Am I as familiar with it as a Kalypso? No. Would I gladly work on it anytime? Yes. With the Kayak, I've now been on 3 events with set days, the last being the most involved show, effects-wise (and luckily that was light) and several more one-day SSS's. Pretty sure I can judge that switcher against my experiences with the Sony at this point, and it's just inherently worse. In the sense that it's inferior to the switchers that preceded it, yeah, it's crap. And for you to tell me I only think that because of a button that doesn't exist is ridiculous; the macro pause thing is hardly the only complaint I have with this switcher. The list is long and distinguished, and it's been posted by more than one TD before, and in my case at least, it has nothing to do with my relative unfamiliarity with it; my complaints are purely based on capability and (non) ease-of-use compared to a Kalypso and an 8000. Rick, thanks for posting those phone numbers. I don't know how many Kayaks are installed in trucks currently in the US, but if it's significant I have a feeling Thomson may have to buy you guys new monthly plans for your cell phones. (joking) I for one intend to take advantage of the opportunity to talk to you three. As an aside, as far as the Kalypso being different from a 4000 - the first show I did on a Kalypso, I thought the truck would have a 4000. I walked in, got over the initial shock, set up the show just like I would've on a 4K, and no one was any wiser. I think we would've liked to have seen a continuing evolution in software ( 4000 ---> Kalypso ---> Kayak) rather than a completely different direction. Again, I did a bunch of shows on the DD-35, and didn't feel it was a bad switcher either. I agree with Mike that it was "better" than the Sony 7000, whatever that means to a TD.

Rick, I learned the 1600/1680 and the 300 on the fly. I was then given a four or five hour "class" by another TD when the 3k came out and was installed in a truck that we used. I have never had any formal GVG training on the Kalypso. Of course, the first software I used was 1.89 or so. (What was Classic Video running when they installed it way back when???) I went to Sony's facility outside of Chicago for 7000 training and when Comcast bought their 8000 I was trained in the truck on that box. I also got trained on the DD35 prior to the GVG/Thompson merger. I used the DD35 on NMT trucks until they pulled the one out of A-35 and they killed A-19. In my view the DD35 was a better switcher then the Sony 7000. I do believe that the Kalypso is better, more functions/features/ ease of use then the DD35. I also like the Sony 8000 and I wish I had an 8000A or G rather then the original series when I use that box. A few things that Thompson should remember is that A) MTVG does not always buy all the options and THAT can impact how we freelance TDs view a product. B) We don't always have the needed time to trouble shoot or call a trainer when we get six hours to build a show. C) My biggest issue with the DD and Sony 7000 was that I would see each box maybe once every five or six weeks during the summer, rarely in the winter. You can NOT be comfortable running any switcher if you see it infrequently.

Wow, where to start? First, I would like to thank Matt for his accurate and level-headed response. I also thank John and Gary for providing this forum for those of you who use our switchers. It's an excellent way to share the wealth of knowledge that's out there. We at Grass Valley consider this your forum, and resist the temptation to do some free advertising in this space. But there are times when it's appropriate to chime in and and share our perspective on some things. Yes, the Kayak interface is different than Kalypso's. I think it's also fair to say that the Kalypso interface was different than the Model 4000. We had to provide considerable training at the introduction of Kalypso, some of it free, in order to make sure it was as useful as possible to the businesses that use mostly freelance TDs. We are providing support of special events and training for Kayak newbies, and working with mobile operators in a joint effort to help TDs get up to speed with on the switcher. Later this year we're launching a Kayak TD training tour to get even more of you familiar with this switcher, which is, as some of you have pointed out, bringing a lot of power into smaller production trucks for less $$$ . We'll be sure to provide more details on this in this forum as schedules and venues firm up. It's true that the Kayak roots are largely XtenDD based. There are not many TDs in North America who are familiar with the DD switcher family. Those who are recognize what a powerful switcher it is. Our challenge as a switcher development team, combined from two formerly competing teams, is to create a switcher that provides the best of both. It's clear that many out there worry that we may be headed in the wrong direction, and that we are not listening to you, the users. In fact, we're talking with lots of users out there. We're regular readers of this forum as well. We fully understand your concerns. We're also available for direct communication about specific questions or issues you may have. Please feel free to contact me, or if I'm not available, Mark Narveson or Jay Shinn. Here's our contact info: Rick Paulson +1 530-478-3319 off. or +1 530-263-0458 mob. richard.paulson@thomson.net Product Manager for KalypsoHD and KayakHD Mark Narveson +1 530-478-3909 mark.narveson@thomson.net Director, Product Marketing Jay Shinn +1 530-478-3987 jay.shinn@thomson.net Director, Live Production Solutions I feel a torrent of Kayak features and benefits coming on...so I'll stop now, but want to say thanks for all of your valuable feedback. We appreciate the level of expertise that is represented in the members of this forum. We're always listening because we know that your success is critical to ours.

[quote="EricG"]macro pauses are ONLY on the SidePanel...[/quote] Macro pauses are available on the panel. Hold down the button "Ins-p" and you can select the length of pause you want. It seems like most of the complaints that the "Kayak isn't a real switcher" could easily fall under "I'm not familiar with the Kayak, so I'd rather not work on it" category. I totally understand not wanting to work on a switcher you're not very familiar with, that's why I don't work on Sonys. Is the Kayak a good live sports switcher? No. Should it be put in trucks that have a bunch of different TDs working on it. No. But that's a different argument than just saying it's a "crappy switcher." The Kayak fills a niche of being an affordable switcher for small to mid-level stations. What it does is give the TDs working at these stations access to most of the big-time features of a kalypso or 8000 (albeit harder to access). If I were building a truck, I'd definitely put a Kalypso in it, but I do respect Grass Valley being able to pack a ton of great features into an affordable switcher (even if the UI isn't what I'm accustomed to). This sounds like a sales pitch for the Kayak, but I assure you I don't work for GV.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]MTVG is "willing" to send a "trainer".[/quote] Wow, how is that working out for MTVG if they have to send a trainer out all the time. Good money management there. Wouldn't a Kalypso or Sony, while it cost more up-front, have saved more in the long run? STOP LOOKING AT THE UP-FRONT COST OF A CRAPPY SWITCHER! Listen to users before you purchase. Thank you NMT for listening to us, MTVG needs to listen now. Back to your original question, the Kayak does come in several versions, if it says 3ME's I would expect 3ME's, that includes P/P. Even a full 4ME switcher still uses the 3ME panel, so the 4th ME is buried, and you have to press yet another button to see it. I just macro the few things I need in ME1, which defeats the purpose of macros, cause now I have fewer of them (only 32 accessible at any given time, even though there are 100 that you can store). I have seen a "3ME" Kayak which has a "half ME" in it, so 2 FULL ME's, plus a "half ME." I'm not too sure what the half ME can't do, but probably fewer keyers, fewer options on keyers, etc. You should see if you can contact MTVG and find out exactly what's in the truck. Also, YOU NEED THE SIDEPANEL SOFTWARE! Ask if they have that connected to the switcher. You may get by with just loading someone else's show and running that, but you will have no idea how anything works, and you won't be able to save yourself. Luckily, you'll have the "trainer" with you, hopefully that doesn't mean the EIC who is busy with everything else. --- Dan P.S. Funny, I was in a MTVG truck a couple weeks ago (7HDX) which has the XTEN DD in it. My Kayak training helped, but still wouldn't be able to set up a full show if I wanted to. It was the AZ home truck in SF, so the switcher was already loaded, otherwise I would have needed an extra 4 hrs for set-up.

[quote="EricG"]Well, that might not be necessary. After all, he might be on a 2-camera show with no effects...[/quote] Eric, it is MLB. Tampa Bay Devil Rays. July 24-26. MTVG is "willing" to send a "trainer".

[quote="EricG"]Is there anyone at Thomson/GV/whatever it is now that's listening to TD's? ...any info I need about the Sony is readily available to me? Maybe it's that Sony wants TDs' help in making their switchers better, and Thomson thinks they don't need the feedback. Whatever it is, it's not helping their reputation.[/quote] All great points Eric. I have always wondered why you don't hear anything from Rolf Grzibek or Jochen Huegel who have surely read the Kayak complaints numerous times here in defense of their product. Quite frankly, it's their arrogance in thinking they have created a better product which is why Thompson bought out Grass Valley in the first place. As someone else eluded to on this forum, the riff that must be going on between California and Germany has to be tearing the company apart and the infrastructure that was in place, is now nothing more than ones ego on who controls what, which is nothing more than anarchy. This is not a company that cares. This is NOT the same Grass Valley we all knew years ago that created great products that had become the industry standard throughout the world. At the risk of repeating myself, this switcher is nothing more than old technology that FAILED in this country and is repackaged. It's been repackaged in such a way that because of the design of the current switcher (for automation), that it can't do simple tasks easily. The is a plain fact and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. It's menu system is too convoluted and it has no business being any truck where TD's have to set things up quickly in a short amount of time. Thompson should sit up and listen and not be so arrogrant. The DD series may have been more accepted in Europe (because there was nothing else available at the time), but that doesn't make it a successful switcher. The DD's WAS AND IS a complete failure here in the United States. Thompson should have learned from Grass Valley instead of thinking they "got it right" from the get go in their DD design. Listen, you both brought something to the table.... but now it's time to own up and admit you made mistakes in the Kayak and correct them instead of trying to force something down our throats that doesn't work. The bottom line is there is nothing more easier to use than a Kalypso. You can program simple tasks easily and in a very short amount of time. Why in the world would you want to change that? As Eric mentioned, it's your reputation and right now that reputation (and track record) isn't looking so good.

Well, that might not be necessary. After all, he might be on a 2-camera show with no effects... Mike, I don't know much about this, but the largest Kayak I've seen (and I think it's the largest panel made, according to what the EIC told me) has 3 TOTAL M/E's, that includes P/P. However, if the truck bought the option, I believe you can have 3 M/Es plus P/P, it's just that you still only get 3 physical buses on the panel. Not sure how much help having that "hidden" M/E would be during a live broadcast, unless you had a complicated clean feed to do and just used that M/E for it. As long as we're on this topic (again), I'd like to relate a story about my latest Kayak gig. This past Tuesday I was on a show that required a replay move, and a couple of standard "squeeze-backs", stuff that would take 10 minutes to set up on a real switcher. I already had kind of gathered from this forum that you sort of need to use macros for everything, and when I found I couldn't run a DPM timeline together with a P/P cut (or with anything else), I realized why. Somebody please tell me if I'm mistaken about this. Anyway, I figure no problem, I'll record the macro to RUN the effect, then cut in Key 1 (the replay still), then wait 20 frames and CUT on P/P.... wait a second, how do I wait 20 frames? Shit, time to hit the forum.... oh there it is, in a post from a while back, macro pauses are ONLY on the SidePanel... and of course, this truck didn't have the SidePanel. Nice! I ask the EIC if he's got the SidePanel software on a laptop. Fortunately he does, he brings this monstrous 17" screen laptop up front, we lay it across ME's 2 and 3 (you Windows people, how do you put up with these 20-lb. behemoths?) we hook it up to the switcher, my director is looking at us and wondering aloud what the hell is so wrong that we have to hook a laptop to the switcher.. "oh nothing, I just need this so I can run a SIMPLE REPLAY MOVE!"... anyway, got the pauses inserted by jumping back and forth between the touch screen and the laptop as I created my macros. Fun! Is there anyone at Thomson/GV/whatever it is now that's listening to TD's? Why do I have Dana Goodwin's cell #, which I've used more than once and gotten help from him when I'm trying to do wacky shit with an MVS8000 (twice in PERSON when he happened to be onsite at the SuperBowl and the NBA ASG) but when it comes to the Kayak, my only source of help is this website? Why am I posting in response to Mike with guesses, but any info I need about the Sony is readily available to me? Maybe it's that Sony wants TDs' help in making their switchers better, and Thomson thinks they don't need the feedback. Or maybe it's just general incompetence. Whatever it is, it's not helping their reputation.

Mike tell 'em to send another truck ... why beat yourself up!