i recently told someone thats getting ready to graduate college who works at our station that "the days are rapidly coming that the only people who will work in tv are those that either 'create' things or 'fix' things or 'hold' things (microphones, ie talent) and gone will be those who simply know how to 'do' things. So while youre getting your degree in Communications see what other avenues your degree co-relates to. Im thinking of going back to get an A.S. in Electronics. But probably Healthcare Devices Electronics. Go in and fix a x ray machine or a CAT scan machine etc.

Bob and all my fellow TDs, I?m in total agreement. It is a sad thing that we are losing jobs. Some would say, it is sad that we are losing the quality of production values. Show will lose some of their spontaneity, they will be more routine. But the fact of the matter is, technical advances have made many lose their ?technical? knowledge. Gone are the days of TK41s and 44s that required not only an engineer to set up but an artist, as he or she would tweak those vacuum tubes and make pretty pictures. And this would take at least 15 minutes per camera, and we would use actual physical charts on the stage. Now?turn on camera?press set up button. Done. (yes I know it is more than that but?) And now with computers attached to every piece of equipment, our job today is much easier than the ?old? days. How many of you EVS folks ran a TR-70 quad machine? A little bit different isn?t it. Now I?m not saying that is better now?cause it was a lot of fun in the ?old? days. Today it is a lot easier. And management?CEOs etc?Network ownership?love to save money. And even though technology is our friend, it has also enabled the aforementioned folks who have the money, to scale down in that always expensive commodity. People. No 401ks?No health insurance?No HR problems?No sick days?No vacations. They love it. So yes the TDs of tomorrow won?t be able to build fancy effects or play a switcher like a piano during a live breaking news event. But how many people can ?fire? up a camera chain. Load a dual system film chain with breaking news film footage, while the machine is running. How many people can kick a camera pedestal holding a TK-44 weighing hundreds of pounds and truck, tilt, zoom, ped and focus at a moving actor. When I first started working on the news in the late 70s, there were 15-20 engineers working on a three camera 2 ? news block. This does not include the 4 or 5 lighting engineers nor the many playback operators (film chains had a video man and a projectionist and lab personnel) then tape came around and the numbers went down slightly as there wasn?t a need for a projectionist nor lab folks. As stated?.the news was done with at least 25 people on the stage + 3 DGA per show. To 8 engineers and 2 DGA per show today. Tomorrow? 2 or 3 engineers and 1 DGA I?m just saying since the beginning of television time we the ?worker bees? have been learning new equipment and new ways of doing the same job, while the money people have been learning new ways to save money. Sadly in some instances people lose their jobs. Or get re-assigned. Or learn a new skill. . Good luck to all?.Continue learning and relearning what you already know.

[quote="ai21"]my im union comment, meant one thing-im union and liking you to management ie we have nothing more to discuss, ie i was done wit the convo. the way management and unions dont talk. Im glad Bob put in his "two cents". Bob, maybe you can help me with this, the station I left, I dont know if they have any idea of what they are doing, as I read on their site, they have the Ignite, a sony 7350 and a kayak. Its my understanding though that the Ignite is running the show. What is it that they are possibly doing with all that hardware? I do recognize im taking the "old school" way about things-learn at a station and move on to bigger and better. im in the 134 market doing the td/dir thing. hopefully move on sooooonnnn, to the bigger and better. (my wallet is begging me to do so) where did you start?[/quote] A couple of years back when I was at NAB I got a Demo of Ignite--I was really just on the booth to see the Kayak 4.5 that they had released thought it was going to be a "5 ME" Panel anyway I digress--It uses the Kayak as it's switcher in the system. So your station probably has that listed as a separate item since Ignite is the "controller". I would then think you would still keep your old switcher and control room just in case!!! ;)

Bob---- The hammer was well used and well aimed... on the head of the nail.

my im union comment, meant one thing-im union and liking you to management ie we have nothing more to discuss, ie i was done wit the convo. the way management and unions dont talk. Im glad Bob put in his "two cents". Bob, maybe you can help me with this, the station I left, I dont know if they have any idea of what they are doing, as I read on their site, they have the Ignite, a sony 7350 and a kayak. Its my understanding though that the Ignite is running the show. What is it that they are possibly doing with all that hardware? I do recognize im taking the "old school" way about things-learn at a station and move on to bigger and better. im in the 134 market doing the td/dir thing. hopefully move on sooooonnnn, to the bigger and better. (my wallet is begging me to do so) where did you start?

If I can add my two cents to this arguement (warning - diatribe coming).... It is very true that technology is changing, and that is especially true of our industry. You no longer need to know sync pulses or H/V timing to be a tape op/tape editor - you don't need to know how to manually turn the zoom handle in order to do a smooth zoom on a camera - and you don't need to know how to build effects to get a job as a TD in many places anymore. Heck, anyone with a DV camera is now considered as a producer/director! Technology is changing our business, whether or not we embrace that change. As someone who has worked as a TD for over 30 years, and who has worked with various switcher manufacturers for almost 20 years, it is my opinion that by teaming up with automation companies, manufacturers are shooting not only us users, but themselves, in the foot in the long run, regardless of the requirement of stations to cut costs. Manufacturers are shooting themselves for this reason: as this forum has proven every time a question comes up about "what switcher should I buy?", there is an almost "religious" defense of one switcher over another by various users...those that love SONY & hate GV, those that love GV and hate SONY. The reality is that the guts of an 8000 do almost exactly what the guts of a Kalypso can do, and vice-versa. The only real differentiation (other than price) is the user interface - that's what all of the demos that you guys watch are all about, and manufacturers will do whatever it takes to drive that one point home. Take away the UI & there is virtually no difference between switchers...if a switcher is being driven soley via automation with no need for a panel, then manufacturers are eventually going to be hard pressed to make sales based on ANYTHING other than price - it also means that a "pro-sumer" computer-based switching system (at 1/100th of the cost of the big switchers) will be as viable of a choice for an automation-based purchase as a high-end system from GV, SONY, S & W, Ross, or anyone. Thus, we will (in my opinion) eventually see the big-switcher manufacturers fade away as producers of small, medium & large scale switchers as a direct result of their actions today...if there's no need for true operators, then there will be no need for "real" switchers. Automation systems are shooting us operators in the foot by making us somewhat obsolete. As was pointed out with the "Buggy Whip" analogy, this is considered as progress, and apparently the person who posted of this part of the thread does not lament the loss of a couple of his/her fellow TD's as long as he/she still has a job- but it's not just the TD's losing their job...it's the camera operators, audio engineers, CG operators, Still Store operators, lighting directors, prompter operators, etc. OK, so these jobs are now considered "obsolete" in the interest of a station saving money (by the way, news is the least expensive thing that a station can do...it's LOTS cheaper than buying syndicated programming, where they can't get 100% of the $$$ for commercials being run). To me, that's like saying that a company's Customer Service agaents have become "obsolete" when all that's happened is that their jobs have been outsourced to India or are now being handled (poorly) by some convoluted voice-mail system. It's not so much having jobs go "obsolete" as it is "culling the herd". Those of you who are left as "TD-Directors" may feel good about yourselves, but it's not going to be very long before news directors & managers start concluding that in an automation system-oriented control room, it's not a very big step to realize that the Producer who is creating the rundown can just as easily imbed their own macros as it is to have a "director" do that. If you don't need a multi-person crew to do the news anymore when a two-man band will suffice, then you don't need a two-man band when you can do the same job just as efficiently with a one-man band. The Darwinian mentality of "only the strong will survive and I'm surviving while my collegues have been eliminated" will be tempered a bit when it's your time to become "obsolete". And while you're currently feeling good about yourself, remember that being able to press a space bar to advance to the next item in a macro list (something that the automation system should be able to do by itself without the need for your intervention) does not necessarily make you a TD - I could teach an 8-year old to press a space bar: being able to look up a list of pre-built macros & plug them into a rundown does not necessarily make you a Director, either. The biggest problem that I see with automation systems, however, is this: How often do we read postings on Editsuite from people who either want to start out as TD's, or who want to upgrade their skills by going into Sports? The answer is VERY OFTEN. TD's (as well as other TV diciplines) have traditionally started out at the Local News level - that's where you learn the basic skills and that is where you hone your skills before moving on to the more demanding and challenging arena of Sports. While it's not impossible, you rarely hear of of people jumping straight into the Sports World - without already having a basic skill set, operators rarely survive in Sports, let alone progress up the sports ladder from doing something basic like high-school sports coverage to a network "A" game. For those of you who haven't seen it, you might want to take a look at the Evolution system out of Australia...it is promising to do for Sports what Ignite & Overdrive are doing for news; well, there goes some more jobs. From Sports, the next logical progression up the ladder is to Entertainment. This is traditionally where the big money is, so everybody eventually likes to work up to this area. But you don't just step into Entertainment...you need experience before most producers & directors will consider you. If the talent pool in News dries up because of automation and no one learns the basics of TD'ing, where will the next crop of Sports TD's come from, and beyond that, where will the next crop of Entertainment TD's come from? Being able to advance a macro list won't qualify you do switch an "American Idol" or "Academy Awards" or even "Jeopardy". Many of us thought that we were God's gift to TV when we were young & starting out (some people still feel this way), especially when we got promoted or kept our jobs while others were let go. The more experience you gain, the more you'll understand what you DON'T know, and that those older folks who've been around awhile really have forgotten more than you'll ever learn. I belong to all of the TV unions, but I (and most others in those unions) don't subscribe to the attitude that "the comapny owes me a job" - we've all worked hard to progress. We are ALL only a step away from having our next available job require the phrase "Would you like fries with that?" The one thing that I have learned - which hopefully those of you who seem to be quick to put others in the "buggy whip category" will also learn someday - is that your ladder of success that you are trying to climb was built by the very people that you are trying to displace. I'm sure that I've opened myself for some shots on this...be my guest.

[quote="ai21"]ok, plain english for you as well, this is turning into myspace for some reason, so im only going to say this once as well. calling all people that dont think too hard about simple comments to the floor.[/quote] Hello, pot? This is kettle. Guess what? [quote="ai21"]you seem to have spoken like a true manager, im UNION, that means we are done with this conversation.[/quote] I was a TD at a station that brought in a Grass Valley Ignite in order to eliminate either the TD or director. Now, after the installation of the Ignite, I'm a director/TD. In a union, by the way. So much for your theory. Unions have their upsides and downsides. In your case, the union mentality seems to have taken that all-too-familiar course of 'I'm in the union, so I'm owed something by the company that hired me well into the future!' Too bad that has little to do with reality.

ok, plain english for you as well, this is turning into myspace for some reason, so im only going to say this once as well. you missed my point or REALLY have too much time on your hands. the lad made a comment about the overdrive, i made a comment about the station i worked at that bought an auto-type system-for the point to lay off a total of 15 people, including taking master control for 13 stations and doing it out of one and converting to robotic cameras. the auto system gave them leverage to get rid of the audio guy, a few graphics, and on down the line. i dont care or have the time to bring out unemployment numbers or figures. my point was and is-the fact that tv stations are looking into doing so much downsizing, regardless of being able to learn-theres nothing to learn when you or your buddy is being fired. was i laid off, no, i left to go back to school a year before they did it. now for my last point, you seem to have spoken like a true manager, im UNION, that means we are done with this conversation. calling all people that dont think too hard about simple comments to the floor.

Okay, since my point seems to have flown completely over your head, I'll put in plain English for you. There's no "jobs lost". Some jobs become obsolete while new jobs are created. In the United States since 2003 we've gone from 9 million unemployed persons to 7 million. In other words, far more jobs have been created than lost in the last four years. Does that guarantee your chosen industry will have the same number, or more, jobs now than in 2003? Of course not, but there's jobs somewhere. "Adapt or die" may sound harsh, but it's reality. Crying over a few master control guys losing their jobs because of technological advances makes as little sense as wishing you could still buy hardware at the local store instead of Home Depot. Things change, job opportunities change. If you can't handle change, because you were too set in your ways, or too used to your comfortable job, or just too old, time to retire. Sorry. I didn't make the rules.

the other end of automation is when these stations that are owned by owner groups dump all their master control ops and do it out of one central hub. jobs lost there as well. AI

Yeah, I agree! And while we're at it, what's with all these automobiles on the roads these days? You know how many buggy whip manufacturers went out of business because people started buying cars? That was a lot of jobs lost, by golly. Down with all technological advances of any kind! I don't like that new-fangled "rock-n-roll" music either, with those Beatles and their moptops. Kids today, I tell ya, nothing but trouble.

so how many people are getting laid off to make way for the overdrive? a station i used to work at in GB, WLUK, just got an automation system from GVG and they laid off half their staff, around 7-10 part timers and i believe 1-3 full timers. down with automation systems, they are pushing people out the door. AI

Thanks For The Info..... Larry

If you are going to automate, OverDrive would be the way to go. The issue will always come down to having a competent end user who understands the limitations and abilities of the system. OverDrive is scalable, so you can automate just about everything, or you can just do a couple of things, the level of automation is quite wide ranging. You will probably have a producer, and manual control via a director. While I've heard of stations trying to have one person do it all, it really at this point is quite unworkable, as most producers will already have plenty to do and not enough time or technical understanding of the switcher.