[quote="Don B (Jr)"]Kayak is in the proposed budget for '09...[/quote] ************UPDATE (Long Overdue) ************* Kayak got tossed out of budget.....Sony 8000A being installed in a couple of weeks (3/29), updating/replacing original 8000 (v5.21). Keeping 4x3 format - switching to 16x9/HD at a later date. Yippee! Don Bailey TD/Director KXTV-Sacramento

[quote="Al Bonilla"]WITF (PBS in Harrisburg Pa) has a 2.5 M/E, when the bean counters sat down to decided to upgrade 2 years ago from the 1980's. Kalypso was discussed but the Kayak won due to price AND flexibility. I was trained by Grass for 3 days and turned lose on the thing, I find it easy to use and have somehow become the main user[/quote] A TV station and a live sports truck are two completely different production environments. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. The vast majority of people complaining about the Kayak are those in live sports production, where you only have 6 hours from when you first see the switcher to when you hit the air, and programming the switcher is far from being the only thing you're spending those 6 hours doing. Another poster in this thread mentioned creating an effect while he was punching the game to get a sponsored element on the air. How often does this crop up in your production environment, and would you feel comfortable doing it on your station's Kayak? Also, I should ask, have you ever sat in front of a Kalypso? Even if you find the Kayak easy, without experience on the Kalypso as a point of reference you're not going to get very far. Here's my personal take on the issue. I TD much smaller shows than most of the people on this board and have very little experience on "big iron" switchers like the Kalypso. The very first time I sat in front of a Kayak in a low-pressure situation (i.e. no show that day) it took me several hours to figure out how to create a simple DVE move and use it as a transition between sources. Granted this is with no previous Kayak experience, but compare it to the first time I sat in front of a Kalypso. I had no problem doing exactly the same thing on the Kalypso in about a tenth of the time, with about equal experience and training as I had with the Kayak (i.e. none). It did not help that this particular Kayak had no sidepanel. The fact that the sidepanel is necessary for many features (i.e. non-crippled macros) but is not included in the base purchase is INEXCUSABLE, especially as the target market of the switcher is not likely to buy any extras that aren't strictly necessary for switcher operation. When you buy a Kalypso, you get a full-featured menu panel with it. When you buy a Kayak, you don't. Who decided that this was acceptable? Side note, this doesn't really pertain to the actual performance of the Kayak, but the sheer visual difference between the interface of the panel menu and the sidepanel program is extremely jarring and creates the feeling of a switcher that was cobbled together with duct tape rather than one designed from the ground up as one product.

WITF (PBS in Harrisburg Pa) has a 2.5 M/E, when the bean counters sat down to decided to upgrade 2 years ago from the 1980's. Kalypso was discussed but the Kayak won due to price AND flexibility. I was trained by Grass for 3 days and turned lose on the thing, I find it easy to use and have somehow become the main user

[quote="Unger"]Sorry, but I'm with Rick on this one.... I know that BIG TEN NETWORK is having a hell of a time filling that TD chair because of the KAYAK[/quote] You mean like getting a phone call on a Thursday, about 1PM Eastern, asking if you can do a game Friday/Saturday? (NEXT day!!) Mongo, I was doing what i would call a "regular NHL" game when the producer realized that the score bug could not generate a sponsored power play element. Graphics had it center screen and larger then needed. I grabbed it and then in ME1 secondary assigned it a TE, sized it and positioned it where it needed to be and then I re-entered ME1 Secondary into ME 3 key4 and there was the sponsored element. I was able to easily get the show the sponsored element, key word here SPONSORED, as I was cutting the show.

Sorry, but I'm with Rick on this one. How many times do new cameras come in that require a whole new training session. Or what if they got rid of the EVS for the all new cheaper "Costello" that nobody understood. This happens all the time in the TD world where swithchers and devices are changing all the time and you have to start froms square one again to keep your job! Bottom line cameras will never change that much to require new operators and the EVS is here to stay because is has become a universal format that WORKS for all tape ops. TD's are just expected to adapt to these changes whether we want to or not. The KALYPSO has been the proven winner for Sports TD's across America so why cant they build new switchers to the preference of the operators and give us a universal format to work with for once. It seems prety simple to me to work around devices that are prefered and most importantly sucessful. I know that BIG TEN NETWORK is having a hell of a time filling that TD chair because of the KAYAK

[quote="Don B (Jr)"]Our Sony 8000 went on the air about a year and a half ago..... Kayak is in the proposed budget for '09... Ignite to be installed soon thereafter Don TD/Director KXTV News10 - Sacramento (ABC affiliate)[/quote] Don, is the Kayak/Ignite decision a corporate decision, or a decision that was made at your station? And what happens to the 2 year-old MVS-8000? Matt - WESH/Orlando

Great, are you one of the lucky few who will remain or have you become "expendable"?

Our Sony 8000 went on the air about a year and a half ago..... Kayak is in the proposed budget for '09... Ignite to be installed soon thereafter Don TD/Director KXTV News10 - Sacramento (ABC affiliate)

[quote="Rick Tugman"][quote="Mongo"]I totally disagree. Yes, there are some things that could be changed to make it more suited to the American sports market, but it is a very capable switcher.[/quote] Let's see... so you don't "totally" disagree..... I didn't say it wasn't capable.[/quote] What I disagreed about is your assessment that if it's not programmed to operate like a Kalypso, it will fail. Not everything has to operate a certain way for it to succeed. I think its price will be its main selling point, and they will sell a lot of them, especially with the proliferation of sports programming today. Look at all the sports networks that have sprung up in the last few years: CSTV, ESPNU, ESPN 360, Comcast Local, and BTN. A lot of these guys hire smaller trucks, and many of these smaller trucks will have Kayaks. Look, it comes down to this: If I were the one specifying what switcher to put in my truck, I'd want a Kalypso. But the bean counters down the hall won't pay for one. The fact that I'm the one using it and they're not doesn't change a thing as far as they're concerned. They have x amount to spend, and that's it. So to get a switcher that we can afford, with HD capability, internal DVEs, chroma keyers, etc., it's likely gonna have to be a Kayak.

[quote="Rick Tugman"]If the operating software is not changed to the Kalypso style of programming (especially where sports remotes are concerned) it will eventually fail.[/quote] It's on its way...but from what I've heard & seen, you still aren't going to be happy - it's still not going to be what we want & need.

[quote="Mongo"]I totally disagree. Yes, there are some things that could be changed to make it more suited to the American sports market, but it is a very capable switcher.[/quote] Let's see... so you don't "totally" disagree..... I didn't say it wasn't capable. The Sony 7K was very capable too as was the DD35 & XTenDD. Where are they now? What I said was, it's not as easy to program as a Kalypso and I said it for several reasons. There is no Borderline for one, thus you have to tie up resourses to program simple effects on keyers because the company that purchased the it was too cheap to purchase the license for the rest of it. It does have some nice features for borders through the DPM however. At least make the Keyer DPM license assignable so you can move the DPMs where you need them... especially downstream. I have never understood purchasing part of a switcher then claiming you have Kayak or whatever but it's not fully operational. The Kayak's timelines are very intutive, but too much because they can be confusing and they were not well thought out for programming sports. I'm sure you have gotten used to it, but programming for sports is just easier to do on a Kalypso full stop! Yes the Kayak is capable to a point, but as you mentioned, "some things could be changed to make it more suited to the American Sports market" and that is the point I think we both speak of here.

[quote="Rick Tugman"]If the operating software is not changed to the Kalypso style of programming (especially where sports remotes are concerned) it will eventually fail.[/quote] I totally disagree. Yes, there are some things that could be changed to make it more suited to the American sports market, but it is a very capable switcher. The Kalypso is not the be-all, end-all switcher. It does most things very well. When you know the Kayak, it also does most things very well. It's a matter of tastes, requirements, and money.

[quote="Mongo"]The moral of the story is to take anything a salesman says with a grain of salt. Ignore whatever they say they WILL do, and just buy based on what it is at that time.[/quote] No the moral of the story is (as I have said in the past) is that, Salesman are Salesman...plain and simple! They will do whatever it takes to sell the product and increase their numbers. "They" (the purchasers/owners and the bean counters) are NOT the operators and while it may look good on paper or in a demo at NAB it is another thing operating and programming in real life situations especially where time is a factor. The bottom line is operators should be consulted when purchasing equipment like this. While a lot of us don't like change, change is inevitable! But where the problem lies is the belief that when something is "new" it has to be better! Not for a long shot and it will come back to bite them in the end. Sony learned from it's mistakes and make corrections from the 7K - the 8K & 9K. History does repeat itself and it will do the same with this switcher. If the operating software is not changed to the Kalypso style of programming (especially where sports remotes are concerned) it will eventually fail.

[quote="EricG"]Interesting side note - I met the owner last week. He tells me that the Grass Valley sales guy told him the Kayak was a hi-def Zodiac. Since the owner already had a Zodiac in his other truck, he figured that was a no-brainer. He was quite upset with Thomson/GVG when he found out, much later, that he'd been had.[/quote] We installed a Zodiak in our truck about 5 years ago, with the understanding that Grass was going to make it HD compatible. Two years later they discontinued it. The moral of the story is to take anything a salesman says with a grain of salt. Ignore whatever they say they WILL do, and just buy based on what it is at that time.

Sure Shot has one on their HD truck. It's not a full size truck. Also no Sidepanel, at least not yet. The EIC is trying to get the owner to put an LCD on the wall, but you know how that goes... Interesting side note - I met the owner last week. He tells me that the Grass Valley sales guy told him the Kayak was a hi-def Zodiac. Since the owner already had a Zodiac in his other truck, he figured that was a no-brainer. He was quite upset with Thomson/GVG when he found out, much later, that he'd been had.

Sweetwater also has a HD/SDI Kayak 2.5ME on board with 48 input, but I don't think it has a side panel! I saw this truck last year at the Rose Parade and it was doing a small venue there.

Earl Miller Productions in Austin has one in one of their trucks

HD Net has one as well in their old truck. BTW, all of these switchers mentioned so far are owned/run by the same company. (there is a family tie between MTVG and HD Net.) Oh, there is also another truck in Texas, just mentioned in the GVG section, someone needing help.