The NCAA will look at TV replays for official time. They will first look at all angles to see if they can determine if a shot is good by looking at the red lights around the backboard. Next they will listen to the playback for the horn. If these don?t work then they will look at the clock on the replay. Several years ago I started putting the game camera in a transform engine so that it was delayed the same amount as the game clock. This only works if the game clock is a real CCU camera (the Frame Syncs will add another frame of delay as mentioned above). I use this for ISO only. I've also found that some arena clocks are not accurate. One arena gave us (CBS) a clock under the stands. When I ran a test on this clock I found that it was delayed 3 tenths of a second compared to the actual backboard clocks! Since the official NCAA clocks are the backboard clocks (because these are what the players go by) this was not acceptable. The arena folks determined that this delay was in their data distribution system. I check the accuracy of my Iso clocks by building my effect (clocks over game cam with the game cam in a TE) then I have the game cam op shoot the backboard clock tight and I record this on an EVS or VT. We get the arena to run the clock down to zero then jog the playback a frame at a time to see if the ?live? game cam video matches the clock in my effect. If they do then I know that everything is in the same ?time zone?. Ed

Another thing that I have done for these extra feeds, especially if I'm trying to duplicate espn shows on a 3000, is I use the DVEous as an extra ME, layering the clocks, graphic and camera one all together. Then I think to myself, "Man, this is a waste of a totally good DVE" But if the show uses little to no traditional DVE moves, might as well use it for something.

A few years back I worked a college championship game at the Staples Center. I won't mention the three letter network I was working for.....For anyone that has not been in LA before, Staples puts out their own game/shot clock combo, and feeds it to the patch room...the same patch room that all the camera triax terminate in before heading to the truck. So the director comes in on set day and notifies me that a camera has to be set out to shoot the scoreboard. When I tell him that there's already a feed from the house, he looks at me like I'm from another planet and points out that it can't be trusted because of the delay. When I then point out it takes the exact same path the extra handheld takes, he just walks away and tells me to get it done....I refuse to do that show anymore

Does someone have an issue?

by the Way, i am mildly retarded, don't really know what i'm talking About, and my posts are mostly incoherent.

is anyone watching espn 2 right now?

the clock the bulls used was not Accurate!

Well, I was told by Jim Angio, Chicago Bulls director, that they used a laptop tied to the scoreboard for their shot clock. This was maybe six-eight years back. Laptop ran some homemade software to read data, laptop screen shot by camera. This allowed them to have the color of the shot clock change at a certain time. Doing a lum key can make it look better. BTW, there are some clocks out there that no one can make look good.

so what kind of switcher does everyone use?

That td that I was referring to earlier makes the clocks look like they are direct connected. You can't tell the difference between his clocks and direct connect they look so good.

[quote="gvgtd"]I only know of one td that can make the clocks perfect everytime at any game with any type of camera...even the arenas that have the clear backboards. He wont tell me how he does it but I watch his games and the clocks always look good no matter what. Another thing is that they are always frame exact. Any ideas?[/quote] I've had pretty good success with the clocks looking good... I use the proc amp on that keyer, and depending on the bug, sometimes use a luma key to drop it in. As far as being frame exact, I just use the path I'm given.

Well I know that JJ did not figure the delay issue out on his own that seems to be the easy part. Making then look good no matter what is the major challenge. The td that makes the clocks look good is out of the midwest somewhere and he has been doing this for years. I just want to know how to do it and make them look good everytime. Please help

One way to avoid delay has been mentioned by JJ, another is to figure out what the path delay is and then take game camera and figure out it's delay in the truck. Take a second output of game and then run it through a delay box. Now, delay at each venue may be different. At the Verizon Center there is a spare game/shot display in the cable room. OK, we have a small amount of delay as the signal runs from the scoreboard controller to the display, unless the scoreboard maker delays everything relative to the farthest display. The camera then goes into at least one set of Grass 9500 series video DA's, then it goes to the truck and whatever delay the truck injects.

I only know of one td that can make the clocks perfect everytime at any game with any type of camera...even the arenas that have the clear backboards. He wont tell me how he does it but I watch his games and the clocks always look good no matter what. Another thing is that they are always frame exact. Any ideas?

[quote="gvgtd"]Why are clocks such a huge issue? Whay can't the arenas come up with a way to determine the time left? All NHL arenas have this capability.[/quote] You are comparing a pro sport to college. I agree that it is stupid to waste time and hardware to back up the officials. I don't mind having game/shot on the back side of ME1, but if I have to start adding artwork and making the color "just right"... I was at a college recently where the clocks were green and an off red, maybe they should ship color correctors so that the clocks can be the correct color. On another tangent, I once had a soccer director ask for a backup clock. I looked at him for a while and asked how we will get a shot of the stopwatch in the hands of the ref. (the ONLY official time is that stopwatch.) At least high school/college wrestling has an official clock you can shoot.

[quote="tv9director"]Does this apply to all ESPN Basketball? I have an ESPN 360 Game coming up, and was just curious.[/quote] I just did a 360 game and they have different rules. Since some 360 shows are done out of sat/production combo units the requirements are rather lax. We flashed to replay, I had to have both clocks on an ME, no artwork needed. It was great, no pre pro, minimal halftime (wide shot with score, then a recap package), no holding the game up for promos. We did have to roll commercial reel out of the truck. Four cameras, a clean feed or two.

Why are clocks such a huge issue? Whay can't the arenas come up with a way to determine the time left? All NHL arenas have this capability.

Does this apply to all ESPN Basketball? I have an ESPN 360 Game coming up, and was just curious.

Yeah that is why I think the clocks over cams for replay are pointless. JJ has the solution have both the camera and the clock going through the same TE or DVE. Still I don't know how the signal gets there. Frame syncs, DA's blah blah. For a bug box I think its fine other than that its deceptive. Still if that is what the producer or director wants I'll make it happen.

I have been told that a DVE'd clock is not valid for the officials in the NBA. Most shows do not do that anymore. I believe the Turner folks pointed it out to the NBA several years back. I was told this by a former Turner TD, who now directs. Several years back at the MCI Center, we were doing an ERT Big East game, DVE'd clock said 0.01 but the red lights on the nets were on. The sole purpose for the clocks, other then as a backup for the bug, is so the officials can look and see if there is a discrepancy between what has been recorded and what is on the displays. IF this is indeed fact, who cares what the clocks look like. Shouldn't the suits be more concerned with making sure the show went well? BTW, we now have officials who must stop games, within the sports rules, to check. What happens when a game isn't televised??

I did the Duke game this past Monday on an HD truck... The EIC said we couldn't use an HD handheld for the clock. This was an issue last year as well so put a call in to the team in Bristol. Here's what was said, if you guys run into trouble with truck engineers.... If we're on an HD truck, we use HD/Triax clock cameras. If its an SD truck, use mini-dv (or whatever). The HD trucks that ESPN uses are from companies with long standing relationships with them. They shouldn't give us a hard time for putting out 1 or 2 unmanned HD handhelds. If they say 'it'll cost more', or 'I'll have to put it in my report'. You say, ok... fine, I still need them. As far as the delay on the clock. I've found that if you have the keyers available (and enough transforms), you should key cam1 under the clock rec still through another transform. If both the clock and the camera are in transforms (and your using and HD clock cam) you'll eliminate any delay. Goodtimes.

ESPN policy is to have the backside handheld shoot wide enough to show both the player with ball in hand and the backboard during the last 0:30 of each half. This is how the refs will judge "buzzer-beater" shots. Don't forget that, while the DVE adds a minimum of 1 frame of delay, clock cameras are very often not genlocked cameras, and are therefore frame-synced. This adds ANOTHER 1 to 2 frames of delay. To take that to an even further point, try doing a show in HD in a truck where the clock cameras are SD LPSs. Between the upconverting / FSing and DVE, you can be talking 3 to 4 frames of delay. I've actually had more than one situation where I put my "clocks" M/E on program, and a camera shooting the game clock in preset. I can obviously see the delay - more than 0.1 second. Years ago (in the early days of ESPN HD), after one particularly heated back-and-forth among my director, tech manager, and EIC, the EIC finally relented and let us use truck handhelds for clocks.

[quote="Perry my Cat"]This has always made the most sense to me. Sometimes this dve clock and camera may decide the outcome of a game but technically it isn't accurate right? (Or am I way off )[/quote] I believe this is why they have those red lights around the backboard and along the side of the scorer's table light up. Refs are supposed to use the lights to decide if the buzzer beater made it, not the clock DVE. DVE delay is usually limited to one frame, which is 1/30th of a second (okay 1/29.97th) while the clock is counting down in 1/10th second intervals, three times the length. Just my humble opinion, but I think there's actually more margin of error in the ref's decision about the replay than is introduced by the DVE, due to factors like the resolution of the screen he's looking at and the motion blur of the camera. The buzzer beater being decided by only one frame is really, really close, so close that you might as well just flip a coin at that point.

One thing I never really understand about this is that using DVE's adds delay in the video being sent (internal or external). I don't think its an accurate translation. Sometimes I work a basketball game where the director has the opposite handheld track the action and shot/game when the quarter gets under :30. This has always made the most sense to me. Sometimes this dve clock and camera may decide the outcome of a game but technically it isn't accurate right? (Or am I way off )

Yeah... its fun. Here's what I do.... ME2 (B) - BKD A Bug Fill BKD B Clock Rec Still Fill Key 3 White Game Clock Key 4 Yellow Shot Clock ME1 (B) - Cam1 Keying Me2 Pre2 with Clock Rec Key Signal (Send this to Tape for Record) ME1 A - Now has 3 available keyers ME2 A - Has 2 available keyers For Clock backup... use ME2 (B) with Bug or Font Key signal. Make sense?.... Goodtimes.

TA- Maybe use PCF (or the B side) of M/E-2 to dissolve in the boxes on M/E-2A? Or, what about doing the clocks entirely on the secondary side of M/E-1? It'll take most (all?) of your keyers, but at least you can dissolve in your 2 or 3-box effect on M/E-1A. Pain in the a$$ that a simple ESPN CBB game requires the resources of a Kalypso. How the heck are you, anyway? You going to do Sacramento VB show next month? -Schmencke

I did the same as you. Next game I was going to try to use the DVeous for both clocks and split the ME for the boxes using the switcher. I was going to lose the chroma out of the cam and add the color via the DVE for the shot. I think this will work, but havent tried it yet.