Will all sincerity, this is why I love this forum: it answered my question and helped me in my work, *and* managed to evolve into a larger campfire discussion on other related topics in our very deep craft. Cheers!

[quote="AJR"]Bob, I don't mean to hijack the thread but do you ever find yourself having a problem being able to actually take those outputs to air? I'm having problems over here and it's driving me crazy. I have MP2 Free Re-Entry turned on (and it isn't even like I'm trying to take the same M/E or sub M/E back in on itself). I have an effect where I key M/E 1 downstream. I want to be able to put M/E 2 or M/E 3 (main or sub) in M/E 1 and it won't let me. I know I can go out and come back in but I don't understand why it won't let me do it all internally. I have checked all my utility bus's and there aren't any M/E outputs that I'm taking back internally anywhere on the switcher except for DSK 2. Any ideas? Thanks, -Allan[/quote] Isn't there a rentry limitation when you are running in 720P? As in how many times you can do it? Curt

[quote="Bill D"]Bob, Util 3? is this a typo?[/quote] No, it's not a typo. In MPII mode on the 8000, the utility buses that are used for the SUB side are actually Util 2 & Util 3. Util 1 remains untouched by the secondary side...thus it can still be used to feed video into borders or for use as side flags. In MPII, you can choose the following for background fills: CLEAN (A+B bus), SUB CLEAN (Util2+Util3), A bus only, B bus only, Util 2 only or UTIL 3 only. Depending on what I need to do on the SUB side, I use one of the keyers that's full-screen black (or something else). This is how I get around not burning a Util bus if I'm using the Util for something else. But I agree, I'd like to see the option of Util 1 added to this list...and Aux Buses...and other resources from other M/E's....and just plain ol' BLACK or Color BG.

[quote="Bill D"]I wish we did have the option of selecting a aux bus to feed some of these things. You get tied to utility 2 for DME wipes, Utility 1 for side flags. If you want to use a pgm out can only use utility 2 and a sub mask is utility 1. A choice for an aux bus for these would be nice.[/quote] That or add Utility 1 to the list, we never use side flags as everything is 16:9 so it just sits there doing nothing.

[quote="AJR"]Util 3 is Sub PVW. You have to be running your M/E in MP2 mode for this to show up.[/quote] I don't even have the option, oh well

Util 3 is Sub PVW. You have to be running your M/E in MP2 mode for this to show up.

[quote="Bob Ennis"]Yes the fill uses up either the A/B clean or the Sub Clean or the A bus or the B bus or Util 2 or Util 3 as the background to the fill - which means that it can be used as a composite without a hole-cutter -.[/quote] Bob, Util 3? is this a typo? I thought in multi pgm the only option for pgm outs for bgds were clean (bgd a/b) or utility 2. Basically to put black on for their the layered mode scenario, to go along with a the preview out (key). I wish we did have the option of selecting a aux bus to feed some of these things. You get tied to utility 2 for DME wipes, Utility 1 for side flags. If you want to use a pgm out can only use utility 2 and a sub mask is utility 1. A choice for an aux bus for these would be nice.

Allan... I haven't tried to do what you're describing, but in demos I haven't had any problems with free re-entry. I also haven't had any problems putting ANY of the M/E outputs onto air.

Bob, I don't mean to hijack the thread but do you ever find yourself having a problem being able to actually take those outputs to air? I'm having problems over here and it's driving me crazy. I have MP2 Free Re-Entry turned on (and it isn't even like I'm trying to take the same M/E or sub M/E back in on itself). I have an effect where I key M/E 1 downstream. I want to be able to put M/E 2 or M/E 3 (main or sub) in M/E 1 and it won't let me. I know I can go out and come back in but I don't understand why it won't let me do it all internally. I have checked all my utility bus's and there aren't any M/E outputs that I'm taking back internally anywhere on the switcher except for DSK 2. Any ideas? Thanks, -Allan

I use one key PVW or one of the 4 PGM outputs to do fills & another key PVW as the hole-cutter. Map these together & use them as 1 crosspoint. Yes the fill uses up either the A/B clean or the Sub Clean or the A bus or the B bus or Util 2 or Util 3 as the background to the fill - which means that it can be used as a composite without a hole-cutter - but one advantage is that you don'tlose the keyers that you assign to the "layered mode" to the rest of the M/E. The Kalypso partitions the keyers...the SONY does not. The only downside is that you can't access key 1 on the Sub Side - this is to avoid patent issues. But I am a big proponent of mapping the extra M/E outputs to crosspoint buttons - it really adds a lot of flexibility to the switcher. I've got 10 crosspoints mapped with various outputs of various M/E's...I'd map more if I had the button space.

[quote="Rich Berlant"][quote="MM"]The Sony aces can keep me honest on this.[/quote] What's the opposite of ace? That's me on a Sony. So aces.... Why not take a key pvw out (in link mode), and pair it with the ME's video, stick it on a x-point, and have a permanent, on demand layered mode? I've only partially tested this, it seemed to work. Did I miss something? Rich[/quote] This is how I use it, works fine, just a kluge in my opinion, you have to be aware to map this extra crosspoint, some involved menus for a new user. Probably will need more outs so you have to go into multi program mode which has it's own limitations then. Also need to burn another crosspoint different from your regular ME out, b/c if you feed that to an external DME you don't get a full white key. Burns bgd bus A or a utility bus that you have to feed black into. Been a while but Kalypso seems a little easier to setup. Sony works though, and I use it alot. It could be worse, remember when Kalypso never offered it?

[quote="MM"]The Sony aces can keep me honest on this.[/quote] What's the opposite of ace? That's me on a Sony. So aces.... Why not take a key pvw out (in link mode), and pair it with the ME's video, stick it on a x-point, and have a permanent, on demand layered mode? I've only partially tested this, it seemed to work. Did I miss something? Rich

[quote="MM"]Layered mode state is part of each e-mem on a GVG 3K/4K. I'm pretty sure this kind of programming is an "all show" programming decision on a Sony 8K/9K, being selected in an engineering-type menu, not by snapshot or effect. You might be able to get around this with macros, though. The Sony aces can keep me honest on this.[/quote] Sony layered mode is a kluge, some of it is setup based (sure could menu macro). But the way send out f/k can be snapshot, as well as just using part of the ME and leaving it that way, etc. 2 keyers over utility bus (black for a fill). Then leave other 2 keyers for rest of you show. Or go in and out, etc. Doesn't work as nicey as Kalypso but works.

Layered mode state is part of each e-mem on a GVG 3K/4K. The same holds true on Kalypso, as layered mode, clean feed, and keyer assignments are set e-mem by e-mem. I'm pretty sure this kind of programming is an "all show" programming decision on a Sony 8K/9K, being selected in an engineering-type menu, not by snapshot or effect. You might be able to get around this with macros, though. The Sony aces can keep me honest on this.

Does the layered mode is part of the emem ? Like if at the end of the period I want it back to standard mode to do my clocks or 2 boxes, can it be done by emem on 3K and 4K ?

Surprised it hasn't already been mentioned. Just did this yesterday on a 4k. ( a lot...used it for all roll-outs...most breaks). I've always built this, and similar effects, by layering ME-1... build my timeline on ME-1 and replace my FF (or whatever DDR) with ME-1 on DSK. Feed ME-2 clean to either DVE of transform engine (if avail). Keeps my DSK's "normal"... use the ME clean feed to allow flexibility. (Yeah, right, it'll ALWAYS come from "RED"). On Kalypso, a macro will recall effect and preset probable roll-out machine ("red") on ME-2. On 4k, I just have to reach up and select machine (no different than replay). On 4k, I wipe on score....Kalypso is usually a fly on. Rich

[quote="MM"]So, it's a transition which I'd normally do on PGM/PST, but it's also a composite that I'd normally do on an M/E, maybe with Duet or Bug to put up the score to break. But, the key priority will be different than my normal on PGM/PST which is FF on top of everything.[/quote] Not knowing everything about your setup, I could be talking out-of-turn here...but it seems to me that one way to accomplish this would be to use M/E 2 as your composite for the rollout - INCLUDING the FF key & reveal. An E-MEM could be used to set up M/E 2 to go from M/E 3 to the rollout composite...you'd put M/E 2 on-line & run the effect. In this way, your keyer opacities can be whatever they need to be for the rollout, there can be a DVE effect built in after the reveal, and the FF will still key the way you want it to. Rather than foire the FF via a macro, it can run via a timeline. A macro could be built to call up the rollout effect on M/E 2, and to put M/E 3 onto M/E 2's A bus and cut M/E 2 onto P/P...so it could be pretty fast & easy. For the kind of shows that I do, "jumping out of order" when it comes to M/E re-entry is often commonplace - it may or may not work in your situation.

OK, I did three CSN games this week, two NBA, one NHL. (Flyers, 76ers, Bulls) My normal setup is is DSK 1- CG1 , DSK 2- CG2, DSK 3- Spotbox, DSK4- Tele w/source hold. For this effect I change priority so that DSK 1 is on top, DSK 3 is next and then DSK 2 is third. I assign a TE to DSK 2 and size ME2B (ME2 Clean) I then build a simple timeline that triggers the Spotbox, turns on DSK2 when needed (already sized and positioned), then depending on the show either the bug or CG1 is on DSK1. For the Flyers and 76ers I had to put the bug in DSK1, into a TE and position it and fly the bug in. The transition contains a fly on that ends up morphing into the windows effect. I know that for college hoops, where a Kalypso or 8000 is rare, some TD's use the DVEous to combine the DDR and replay ME.

I would set up ME with DME/transform or whatever push back if you have to. IF TE, feed it ME clean if Kalypso, so you can dissolve, although probably never dissolve? Also key any gfx elements over it, FFW, etc. macro that does normal cue play FFW Key FFW trans on pgm/pst, macro Preset ME X for you Lose key on pgm and do PGM cut at the same time. before window opens up In theory should cut to ME clean of that key and shouldn't notice the switch. Now everything is in ME. I have done on 4K (without macros) without a problem.

Yes, the effect that we are talking about has a transition at the front end to go from cams to rollout which is why I do it downstream. As for resetting the keys, I just do as you said...recall my replay effect and it normals everything back up. Just make sure you don't source hold your keyers.

Thanks Tyler. Does the CSN "window" have a transition that reveals to the window, or is it just a frame that sits there and loops? I'd think the only reason I'd *have* to do it on PGM/PST is if the element includes a front end transition from camera cuts to rollout. Also, how do you normal the the DSK and TE that you use to do the rollout squeezeback when the rollout is over, so that the next effect on PGM/PST, if macro-driven, doesn't inherit the previous TE state? Do you just be sure to recall your replay e-mem or reset e-mem to clear and normal the DSK/TE while you're in the break? Hosko: yes, you have it right. We use "rollout" to describe showing a highlight replay with score graphic, all in some kind of treatment artwork, as we go to break.

I do CSS shows regularly and am pretty sure I know the window you are talking about. I do the following...(im either on a kalypso or a zodiak) On PGM/PST ---key 1 font 1 ---key 2 font 2 ---key 3 ff ---key 4 ME with VTR so I can dissolve decks if needed You could make key 1 or 2 the bug if thats what you take to break. I put key 4 in a transform engine and position it inside the window. This could all be done upstream too if you had enough switcher...I just do it all downstream because on a zodiak there isnt enough real estate. Hope that helps.

This might sound like a stupid question but what's a rollout? Is it a bumper going to a commercial break, I try to follow people's conversations on here but sometimes different countries use different terms, if its what I described we call it a playoff.

The current CSN effect is precisely what I'm talking about. Question: Is there a transition to the window rollout, or do you just dissolve to the effect since the FF is tied up providing the window (no SpotBox on this truck)? So, I should: 1.) Build the rollout on PGM/PST as a PP / DVEous + AUX / FF / ME-2 / e-mem with proper priority (replay or reset e-mem or FF cut macro normals DSK priorities)? 2.) Duet (score) over FF window over DVEous fed by replay ME? Thanks

Why not just change key priorities on PGM/PST bus? Example, Comcast Sportsnet has a "window" effect for rollout. You have DDR animation, bug that provides the score, and your replay ME in a DVE channel squeezed down and positioned. On a Kalypso or 8000 it is easy to do on PGM/PST. When Chicago first changed to CSN, I had to use a 7000 to do their MLB. On that because of the lack of flexibility of the 7000 DSK, you had to start the effect on PGM, then transition to an ME with FF and bug over the DME.