Sorry It has been a while since I posted this question and I appreciate all of your input.

[quote="Rick Edwards"][quote="Bill D"]Bill[/quote] Bill, The MVE-8000A DME will have monitor outputs but only if it's configured as EXTERNAL. The MVE-9000 has monitor outputs whether internal or external. I would also add to your wish list the new "double-take" software that's coming at NAB. I'm sure they'll charge for that, just as GVG does. Also, I have heard about a new module that has a job/shuttle knob with timecode displays that they'll show at NAB. That's all I know about it. Haven't seen it. Don't think anyone has. I will say Sony has the best external device control in the business, though. I'm looking forward to seeing this new panel module -- especially if it imporoves on it. RE[/quote] Yes, I thought that was weird that MVE 8K internal had no monitor outs, but I guess in theory if you send a keyer you would see what you are doing as you go anyway. Not sure if monitoring is useful or not. I guess can't hurt. Doing MVE 9K internal MVE 8K external gets you 8 channels of monitoring. Very cool . Double take is an option? Thought it was just standard. I know chroma keyers are options, although I think standard on Sony. I am sure both will give you a better deal if you have a DUO or 8K and only want to start with SD. Then later 'unlock' HD with $$. The jog shuttle module sounds very cool, wonder if you are controlling a DVEous or other timeline function whether it will then show you that timeline 'time'. Glad they are adding to the modules. Bill

Rick/Mike/Bill, Thanks for the input. Not sure which direction we're going yet, but all of this is very helpful! Mike

[quote="Bill D"][quote="Mike Cumbo"]Mike, the biggest issue we had was which modules and where to put them on the control panel. We have a 32 crosspoint panel, there is a 24 xpt also. We have four channels of DME, you can add a second DME processor, four more DME channels, eight total. There are some optional bells and whistles for the DME's. You will need to decide what modules and where to put them. We had three of us who had never used the switcher before and one who had a brief exposure. It took several hours to figure out the panel layout. You will have to decide how many inputs you need. Chroma Keys seem to be standard.[/quote] I looked at all the options a while back, now it seems we are a few years from getting a new board, but here would be my wish list, I will live through others up until we get one.. -MVE 8000, 4ME, 32 crosspoint -32 auxbus module -4 channels DME, MVE 9000's internal routing setup -4 channels DME, MVE 8000's external setup (fed by auxes) - I noticed one thing is that I think the MVE 9000 internal setup has monitor outputs, the MVE 8000 internal setup does not. - 4 flexipads - one or two shotboxes - standard transition modules - track ball module (I think would be better for more precise timeline control, or machine control over the joystick) - DSK/FTB module (rather than just FTB module) - Keyer module, and any other important modules that I forgot :) - Device control unit - The Software sharing pgm, so you can share effects, etc between control rooms. Ok back to reality, gonna file share some effects between the 4K's Remove floppy, walk down hallway insert floppy. Bill[/quote] Bill, The MVE-8000A DME will have monitor outputs but only if it's configured as EXTERNAL. The MVE-9000 has monitor outputs whether internal or external. I would also add to your wish list the new "double-take" software that's coming at NAB. I'm sure they'll charge for that, just as GVG does. Also, I have heard about a new module that has a job/shuttle knob with timecode displays that they'll show at NAB. That's all I know about it. Haven't seen it. Don't think anyone has. I will say Sony has the best external device control in the business, though. I'm looking forward to seeing this new panel module -- especially if it imporoves on it. RE

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]Mike, the biggest issue we had was which modules and where to put them on the control panel. We have a 32 crosspoint panel, there is a 24 xpt also. We have four channels of DME, you can add a second DME processor, four more DME channels, eight total. There are some optional bells and whistles for the DME's. You will need to decide what modules and where to put them. We had three of us who had never used the switcher before and one who had a brief exposure. It took several hours to figure out the panel layout. You will have to decide how many inputs you need. Chroma Keys seem to be standard.[/quote] I looked at all the options a while back, now it seems we are a few years from getting a new board, but here would be my wish list, I will live through others up until we get one.. -MVE 8000, 4ME, 32 crosspoint -32 auxbus module -4 channels DME, MVE 9000's internal routing setup -4 channels DME, MVE 8000's external setup (fed by auxes) - I noticed one thing is that I think the MVE 9000 internal setup has monitor outputs, the MVE 8000 internal setup does not. - 4 flexipads - one or two shotboxes - standard transition modules - track ball module (I think would be better for more precise timeline control, or machine control over the joystick) - DSK/FTB module (rather than just FTB module) - Keyer module, and any other important modules that I forgot :) - Device control unit - The Software sharing pgm, so you can share effects, etc between control rooms. Ok back to reality, gonna file share some effects between the 4K's Remove floppy, walk down hallway insert floppy. Bill

Mike, the biggest issue we had was which modules and where to put them on the control panel. We have a 32 crosspoint panel, there is a 24 xpt also. We have four channels of DME, you can add a second DME processor, four more DME channels, eight total. There are some optional bells and whistles for the DME's. You will need to decide what modules and where to put them. We had three of us who had never used the switcher before and one who had a brief exposure. It took several hours to figure out the panel layout. You will have to decide how many inputs you need. Chroma Keys seem to be standard.

Rick, I'm glad the question of Sony 8k options has come up. We're currently switcher shopping. If we go the Sony route, I'll need to submit a sort of wish list. What are the options? What is standard? Thanks in advance, Mike Ser

[quote="Unger"][quote="sahonen"]The situation in my market is actually the opposite - We rarely get a truck with a GVG in this market at all except when someone drives one in (usually from Trio in Chicago) to do an HD show. There are three trucks in this market and they all use Sonys. We will be getting a dual-feed capable HD truck with a Kalypso in time for baseball season, though, which should be interesting to say the least.[/quote] I've been on one of your trucks there in Minn (forget the name) that had the sony8000..It was missing some essential options, macros in particular. I struggled with the (p-2) timeline and could'nt get the recall trigger (0,1 what ever it is on the sony) to call up the REG on the 1st keyframe of a timeline. I found that "action rewind" was the only way to achieve this (i'm sure it was me, but seemed like an extra step that only confused me more). As mentioned in another comment, if you dont see this switcher very often, it can be difficult on you when you have 5 hours to set up your show. Engineers are great, but I'm starting to find that most trucks that have the Sony 8K in it, the EIC's took the basic course on learning that switcher, and are'nt much help at all. Peace out[/quote] Macros are not an option on the Sony. In fact there are very few options. If that truck did not have macros then it's a pretty scary thing. Macros have been on the Sony switcher since version 3 which was released I think clear back in early 2003 (***WAY** before Kalypso had them, by the way). This truck company seriously needs to consider upgrading their software if they're three years behind. RE

When NMT put in their first Sony 7350's they discovered that it was hard to find TDs that were willing and able to use the switcher. Even though SONY offered FREE training to all who could get to the training site (for a while they were even paying day rate and hotel to attendees), it was too difficult to build a large enough 'comfortable' user base in the freelance community. The problem wasn't lack of training, because it was readily available. The problem was the lack of a 'critical mass' of 7350s in the trucking community. This meant that, even if you were Sony trained, because you might only see the switcher once every six months (because only one out of 50 trucks in the country had one) you never got comfortable on it and were more likely to turn down the odd job that involved using one. This led to a de facto 'sony guru', but unlike the audio guru situation, NMT traveled their 'sony gurus' to TD shows on the sony trucks rather than fly the guru AND hire a local. This is how I got my break into network level shows and it is why I never turn down a show if I'm unfamiliar with the gear. I'll either figure it out or we'll barn door wipe to replay. There'll definitely be a show, it just might not have exactly ALL the bells and whistles that the client was looking for - and I'll learn a heck of a lot about the switcher in the mean time! (The client might also learn some new curse words in the course of my grumbling). Some might say that taking shows when you're not comfortable on the gear is unfair to the client. I say that if the client accepts a truck with exotic equipment then they have to accept that they're going to get 'exotic' operators (if you know what I mean). Even more so than death and taxes one thing is certain: CHANGE. Get used to it. It's what keeps this business fun (and fresh) cheers dave

[quote="sahonen"]The situation in my market is actually the opposite - We rarely get a truck with a GVG in this market at all except when someone drives one in (usually from Trio in Chicago) to do an HD show. There are three trucks in this market and they all use Sonys. We will be getting a dual-feed capable HD truck with a Kalypso in time for baseball season, though, which should be interesting to say the least.[/quote] I've been on one of your trucks there in Minn (forget the name) that had the sony8000..It was missing some essential options, macros in particular. I struggled with the (p-2) timeline and could'nt get the recall trigger (0,1 what ever it is on the sony) to call up the REG on the 1st keyframe of a timeline. I found that "action rewind" was the only way to achieve this (i'm sure it was me, but seemed like an extra step that only confused me more). As mentioned in another comment, if you dont see this switcher very often, it can be difficult on you when you have 5 hours to set up your show. Engineers are great, but I'm starting to find that most trucks that have the Sony 8K in it, the EIC's took the basic course on learning that switcher, and are'nt much help at all. Peace out

The situation in my market is actually the opposite - We rarely get a truck with a GVG in this market at all except when someone drives one in (usually from Trio in Chicago) to do an HD show. There are three trucks in this market and they all use Sonys. We will be getting a dual-feed capable HD truck with a Kalypso in time for baseball season, though, which should be interesting to say the least.

FoxSix, just training a TD is not enough. You have to be on the bloody thing on a regular basis. I was trained on the Sony 8000 by one of Sony's better trainers and I was the fill in guy for that client until this year. There were periods where I would not see an 8000 for three to four months at a time. Walking in to do one game and then not touching the switcher is utter hell. Many years back an EIC explained to me why his truck had a Grass 300, Abekas A-53d and Chyron 4100. It was because NBC and CBS required them to be on a truck IF you wanted the truck to be considered for football. He mentioned that those units may not be the best, but they became a de facto standard for trucks.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"][quote="Bill D"]Definitly a lot of options out there for a studio/truck to choose from as far as switchers.[/quote] Maybe for a studio where they control the TD's but not in a truck UNLESS a major network or truck company starts using the Kahuna. The DD-35 failed in NMT's trucks not because it wasn't good, it was very good, but because the base of qualified operators was very small. If a truck company put a Kahuna into a truck meant for general use they would have major issues UNLESS the box operates just like a Kalypso or 8000. Yes, I know it doesn't and that is why we will not see one in a truck in the near future. There are a few trucks that have an audio board guru, because they carry a board that is different. Imagine a truck that needs a switcher guru as well. Clients would run away.[/quote] Good point, I know I usually see 4K's and sometimes Kalypso's. Anything else I would be lost. I have actually turned down jobs because it was a Sony. I remember NMT had trouble with the DD35, I actually got trained through NMT on the switcher, but was never called to do a job. They called once the day before an Oriole game to go down there to work on a 300. I remember someone telling me Abekas used to offer free courses on the A-51, etc. They figured more people who knew it the better. This definitly makes sense. I think if you can prove that you work freelance in trucks that they switcher companies should also offer free courses. Bill

Mike brings up an intersting point: TD pool knowledge of switcher. If switcher companies want their product USED then they must offer a cost effective training course. GVG, for example, offers such couses. However, they are extremely expensive for the average Freelance TD to take... But, since GVG has the "monopoly" on the switchers in the industry (at least here in the US), they don't really need to offer courses-- everyone knows the switchers and so they only offer the classes to the elite few that can afford them. Even though, at some point everyone is forced to learn the 3K, 4K and Kaylpso, if they want to continue in the buisness of being a TD. (I am not sure if Sony offers such courses). Those of us learning are lucky enough to get "trained" on switchers, by some very GENEROUS TDs; people who usually have something much better to do with their time than teach... It seems like a bif of a vicious cycle. I like learning new things, and I am open to new technologies; it is a shame, though, that because of all of the financial and political reasons, we don't get a chance to learn the new stuff, and use it on real shows-- because there is no TD base, because there are no switchers, because companies don't wanna put a new switcher in, becasue there are no TDs, because there are no switchers... etc... The vicious circle. I applaud companies that are offering FREE courses for qualified TDs, to get to know their switchers, in hopes that there will some day be a base from which to pull TDs from, so that companies will feel confident that their trucks will get used and thus will put in some of the newer switchers. Of course, that's just me..... :)

[quote="Bill D"]Definitly a lot of options out there for a studio/truck to choose from as far as switchers.[/quote] Maybe for a studio where they control the TD's but not in a truck UNLESS a major network or truck company starts using the Kahuna. The DD-35 failed in NMT's trucks not because it wasn't good, it was very good, but because the base of qualified operators was very small. If a truck company put a Kahuna into a truck meant for general use they would have major issues UNLESS the box operates just like a Kalypso or 8000. Yes, I know it doesn't and that is why we will not see one in a truck in the near future. There are a few trucks that have an audio board guru, because they carry a board that is different. Imagine a truck that needs a switcher guru as well. Clients would run away.

[quote="kschneider"]Hi Bill, What you saw were DMEMs which is just another type of memory in Kahuna. The advantage of DMEMs is that they are floating. You're not stuck with having to build a memory on a specific ME and have it recalled only on the same ME. You can build a DMEM anywhere and recall it anywhere which I find much more flexible. If you want the older style memory where it always gets recalled to the ME where you built it, then you just save it as a GMEM. This way you have the best of both worlds. Plus the GMEMs can store the actual stills and video material that is in any of the 16 Stores. When you recall that GMEM it will reload the Stores for you. The DVE options on Kahuna are Resize Engines (2D) and 3D DVEs. The resizers can obviously resize the image on Z and also position on X and Y. There is one Resize Engine dedicated to every keyer. With 4 keyers per ME that gives you 16 2D DVEs on a 4 ME Kahuna. In addition you can get one or two boards of 3D DVEs. Each board has 2 twin-channel 3D DVEs. If you're familiar with Dveous you know what I mean by "twin-channel DVEs". One board gives you 2 video/key pairs or 4 video tiles. Two boards will double that to 4 video/key pairs or 8 video tiles. The 4 tiles on a 3D DVE board only use one keyer instead of 4 keyers so that lets you do a lot on one ME. Add the 16 Resize Engines of a 4 ME Kahuna to the mix and that gives you quite a bit of DVE power within the switcher. -= Ken =-[/quote] Ken, Ok I do remember how you could build an effect on one ME and recall it on another that is a very cool feature, like the two emem options to choose from. Moving timelines from one ME to another is a hassle. As far as the DVE's just the 2 boards of DVE giving you 8 channels of video and 4 of the v/k is a very powerful. The resize engine that each keyer has I think will also help take care of those 12 box effects :) Definitly a lot of options out there for a studio/truck to choose from as far as switchers.

[quote="Bill D"][quote="kschneider"][quote="Bill D"]Kahuna, I saw at NAB last year, one thing I remember was that it didn't have an auto recall I don't think. I know there has been a lot of improvement over the last year so a lot may have changed.[/quote] If by "Auto Recall" you mean recalling a memory to a specific M/E all the time, that is something Kahuna has always had. You would save the memory as a GMEM and it will recall it to the same place every time without telling it where to recall. There has also been a lot of talk about multiple DVE channels per M/E. You can fly up to 10 video sources on one M/E on Kahuna - 8 in the 3D DVEs and 2 more in Resize Engines.[/quote] Ken, Oops, glad I added the 'I don't think' :) I remember I thought you had to select the ME you wanted to recall I thought. Obviosuly not the case, also what Dave said about it recalling just certain areas of the switcher is a great feature. On a Kalypso there is no way to touch the ME's without it caring about the state of the keyers using emems (need to use macros) So what is the DVE options for a 4 ME Kahuna. Is there a set of DVE's and transform engines. Is the resize engines something different, what are their limitations?[/quote] Hi Bill, What you saw were DMEMs which is just another type of memory in Kahuna. The advantage of DMEMs is that they are floating. You're not stuck with having to build a memory on a specific ME and have it recalled only on the same ME. You can build a DMEM anywhere and recall it anywhere which I find much more flexible. If you want the older style memory where it always gets recalled to the ME where you built it, then you just save it as a GMEM. This way you have the best of both worlds. Plus the GMEMs can store the actual stills and video material that is in any of the 16 Stores. When you recall that GMEM it will reload the Stores for you. The DVE options on Kahuna are Resize Engines (2D) and 3D DVEs. The resizers can obviously resize the image on Z and also position on X and Y. There is one Resize Engine dedicated to every keyer. With 4 keyers per ME that gives you 16 2D DVEs on a 4 ME Kahuna. In addition you can get one or two boards of 3D DVEs. Each board has 2 twin-channel 3D DVEs. If you're familiar with Dveous you know what I mean by "twin-channel DVEs". One board gives you 2 video/key pairs or 4 video tiles. Two boards will double that to 4 video/key pairs or 8 video tiles. The 4 tiles on a 3D DVE board only use one keyer instead of 4 keyers so that lets you do a lot on one ME. Add the 16 Resize Engines of a 4 ME Kahuna to the mix and that gives you quite a bit of DVE power within the switcher. -= Ken =-

Hi Bill, Yeah, I was surprised to hear MS never installed Sony 8000s. I knew NBC had the contract, and I figured it was a matter of time. I've been impressed though, with what you've pulled from the 4k for so long. I mean, I find myself looking under the seat cushion for an extra DSK or two, then I remember what you're dealing with. Keeps things interesting around election night (and many other nights), I'm sure. We have one XtenDD and three DD-35s. The XtenDD is in our newest control room, which was used somewhat sparingly until recently. I use it for one daily show and one weekly show. XtenDD works really well for us, and I'm one of its biggest fans. The '35s still work really well for us, but ours don't have the Ram Recorders, internal DVx, nor the Clean Feeds, Utility Feeds, that we have on the XtenDD. The M/E programmable feeds (along with a fourth keyer per M/E) are so necessary in keeping some of these effects housed in one M/E. I really miss all the goods when I shift control rooms. Anyway, I'm not sure what the plan is, but we're looking around. All I know is we're going to beef up our main control room to get ready for HD-land and some current production needs/wants. I imagine whatever decision we make will be implemented, examined, and then the other two older control rooms will be evaluated. Sony was up first in Demo-ville, and we're going to look at Kalypso and Kahuna soon. The big deal is HD and how we want to handle it, and support, service, guarantees on products staying in production, etc. There is talk of a business network at some point, so perhaps that would generate a need for another control room? I don't know. I enjoy the speculation, though. Mike

[quote="Michael Ser"]Anyway, we're going to be making a decision on buying more/possibly swapping switchers soon, and we're looking closely at Sony among others. (Sony was first up to bat in demo-land.)[/quote] Mike, you guys are getting new switchers? What do you have now one xtend and a few DD35's? Are you adding another control room, or upgrading for HD?, etc They are killing us here at MSNBC, they promise, promise, promise, next year, next year. The 4k's are great and all but we just can't do the things they want (or not do things easily). Especially when they say, well Fox or Cnn did this, yeah well get us an xtend or Kalypso like they have. Election night was insane, what do you mean we are out of inputs? NBC has a contract with Sony, so we are set on what we would get, don't know if it will ever happen in my time here. later Bill

[quote="Bill D"][quote="kschneider"][quote="Bill D"]Kahuna, I saw at NAB last year, one thing I remember was that it didn't have an auto recall I don't think. I know there has been a lot of improvement over the last year so a lot may have changed.[/quote] If by "Auto Recall" you mean recalling a memory to a specific M/E all the time, that is something Kahuna has always had. You would save the memory as a GMEM and it will recall it to the same place every time without telling it where to recall. There has also been a lot of talk about multiple DVE channels per M/E. You can fly up to 10 video sources on one M/E on Kahuna - 8 in the 3D DVEs and 2 more in Resize Engines. Cheers, -= Ken =-[/quote] Ken, Oops, glad I added the 'I don't think' :) I remember I thought you had to select the ME you wanted to recall I thought. Obviosuly not the case, also what Dave said about it recalling just certain areas of the switcher is a great feature. On a Kalypso there is no way to touch the ME's without it caring about the state of the keyers using emems (need to use macros)[/quote] The Sony 8000 also has a very cool feature kind of similar to this called an OFF path. If, on a timeline, you set the path of an M/E's individual component to OFF (i.e. KEYER 2 to OFF, but everything else to Smooth-Linear) then it effectively ignore KEY2 on all the keyframes that have its path set to OFF. A good example for this is the Telestrator. Since all the replay effects are commonly set to transition and run timelines on PGM/PST, it becomes a pain when the Tele dies (when does THAT ever happen???) and you need to remove it from the program stream. A common solution is to simply put black into the keyer so that even if the Tele keyer is on, nothing will be keyed. Sony gives the OFF path so that the Tele's keyer can always be ignored. If it's in when the replay timeline is run, it will stay in -- if the keyer is off, it will stay off. You can also turn a setup feature called KEYER MODE CROSSPOINT HOLD WITH STATUS on. It's a little more direct approach to this. With this feature on, if you turn the XPT HOLD button on the keyer's buss (it's an actual button on the control panel), then not only will the switcher not change the crosspoint on that buss, but it will no longer care about the state of the keyer as well. Personally, I like the control the OFF PATH gives. RE

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]Rick, just wondering if the Sony version of Double Take will work on an "old" original 8000 or does it need an "A" series??[/quote] Alas, I am told my Sony contact that it will only work on the new "A" version. RE

[quote="Michael Ser"]I recently had the chance to catch a Sony demo, and I was very impressed. I liked the panel, the layout, the shotbox, the ability to name effects, the macros seem powerful, and I love that the macros can control "states" of keyers, and that you can insert pauses into macros. The touchscreen I like, Linux I like, and the DME looks fantastic, from what I saw. There's no doubt I can do what I need to do with Sony's 8000. I like that Sony is challenging Double Take, and trying to raise the bar in the process. I want to take a closer look at the macro editor. I work mainly on DD35's and the XtenDD (which I love), but I've had plenty of experience with Kalypso and other miscellaneous GVG switchers. I have switched on Sony in the past, but only sparingly. Trying to compare the pros and cons gives me a bigger headache than trying to switch the most complex show. ALL the above have their pros and cons. Anyway, we're going to be making a decision on buying more/possibly swapping switchers soon, and we're looking closely at Sony among others. (Sony was first up to bat in demo-land.) Rick mentioned earlier that Sony is excellent in terms of listening to customers and delivering the goods, so I'd like to chime in throw out some suggestions. Just my two cents... 1) I'd like to be able to insert macros into timelines. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), this isn't currently possible. On the DD Series, this, along with the native commands or "events", opens a whole new can of flexibility. For the most part, you can do anything you desire with keyframes, but it often saves headaches and much time when you can insert macros into a timeline. 2) (Correct me if I'm wrong here) As I understand it, there is one "Run" button for timelines that will trigger the timeline (Master or upstream in an M/E) that was most recently recalled? I meant to inquire at the demo, then went off on other tangents and forgot. Is this true? I'm used to being able to recall a timeline in each M/E and Master as well, have all four paused on a user hold, and I can trigger each in any order whenever necessary. Again, I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. 3) Someone mentioned clean feeds, and that improvements are coming: It's great that the various M/E outputs are mappable. I'd like to take it up a notch and be able to re-enter clean feeds or clean feed plus one keyer back into an effect of that same M/E, without having to trick the switcher by looping the output back into the switcher. For example, on a split screen, double box, big/little (whatever), I'd like to key the artwork over the DME, then take the clean feed of the M/E, feed it into one of the boxes of the DME, so that I can dissolve in that box without burning another M/E. Again, it seems like I can trick the switcher by looping the clean back into the switcher as just another source, but it'd be nice not to have to go through the trouble. XtenDD is good in this area, and Kalypso's M/E outs are pretty impressive. 4) I'd like to see the frame memory increased. I've gotten too reliant I guess, on our Ram Recorders to store looping animation, logos, ots backgrounds, etc. Just seems like you can never have enough storage. I think that's all I've got, or at least, all I can remember. Like I said, I was impressed with the product, and it's great to hear that the company has strong listening skills and is very responsive to customer needs (and wants).[/quote] Hi Michael, For #1.... I've been tolkd that's coming. Its practically the only thing really wanting in the macro capabilities on the 8000. For #2..... You can certainly call up timelines on M/Es individually. In addition, all the timelines are independant from one another so if you call up a timeline on 5 different regions, get them running you can call up another 5 (or more -- or less -- ) regions and run completely different effects. The 8000's master recall (better known as Shotbox) is effect agnostic; meaning that when you make a shotox register, all the different parts of the shotbox register don't have to have the same underlying effect number. That means that ME 1 could be recalling Snapshot #43, DME1 Effect #4, DME2 Effect #88 and ME3 recalling effect #2. For #3.... I am told that is, indeed, a feature of their new software to be released at NAB, that you no longer have to actually run a video cable to use an input and an output to reenter the secondary M/E into the primary M/E. Personally, I love the fact that with the 8000 you can have a keyer common across primary and secondary ME partitions. For #4..... From my understanding, the 8000 has always had the capacity on the hardware to do tons of frames, but the software has not yet caught up. I am hearing that this summer they will finally be able to handle somehere around 2000 frames or so of HD anaimation. They are touting it as 68 seconds. I am told that the NAB software will (finally) have the ability to hook up a firewire drive to the switcher directly bypassing the control panel and is supposed to allow much faster transferring of frames in and out of the switcher. That's always been a bottleneck in both the Kalypso and the 8000. I'm looking forward to NAB to see this new stuff work. RE

[quote="kschneider"][quote="Bill D"]Kahuna, I saw at NAB last year, one thing I remember was that it didn't have an auto recall I don't think. I know there has been a lot of improvement over the last year so a lot may have changed.[/quote] If by "Auto Recall" you mean recalling a memory to a specific M/E all the time, that is something Kahuna has always had. You would save the memory as a GMEM and it will recall it to the same place every time without telling it where to recall. There has also been a lot of talk about multiple DVE channels per M/E. You can fly up to 10 video sources on one M/E on Kahuna - 8 in the 3D DVEs and 2 more in Resize Engines. Cheers, -= Ken =-[/quote] Ken, Oops, glad I added the 'I don't think' :) I remember I thought you had to select the ME you wanted to recall I thought. Obviosuly not the case, also what Dave said about it recalling just certain areas of the switcher is a great feature. On a Kalypso there is no way to touch the ME's without it caring about the state of the keyers using emems (need to use macros) So what is the DVE options for a 4 ME Kahuna. Is there a set of DVE's and transform engines. Is the resize engines something different, what are their limitations?

I recently had the chance to catch a Sony demo, and I was very impressed. I liked the panel, the layout, the shotbox, the ability to name effects, the macros seem powerful, and I love that the macros can control "states" of keyers, and that you can insert pauses into macros. The touchscreen I like, Linux I like, and the DME looks fantastic, from what I saw. There's no doubt I can do what I need to do with Sony's 8000. I like that Sony is challenging Double Take, and trying to raise the bar in the process. I want to take a closer look at the macro editor. I work mainly on DD35's and the XtenDD (which I love), but I've had plenty of experience with Kalypso and other miscellaneous GVG switchers. I have switched on Sony in the past, but only sparingly. Trying to compare the pros and cons gives me a bigger headache than trying to switch the most complex show. ALL the above have their pros and cons. Anyway, we're going to be making a decision on buying more/possibly swapping switchers soon, and we're looking closely at Sony among others. (Sony was first up to bat in demo-land.) Rick mentioned earlier that Sony is excellent in terms of listening to customers and delivering the goods, so I'd like to chime in throw out some suggestions. Just my two cents... 1) I'd like to be able to insert macros into timelines. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), this isn't currently possible. On the DD Series, this, along with the native commands or "events", opens a whole new can of flexibility. For the most part, you can do anything you desire with keyframes, but it often saves headaches and much time when you can insert macros into a timeline. 2) (Correct me if I'm wrong here) As I understand it, there is one "Run" button for timelines that will trigger the timeline (Master or upstream in an M/E) that was most recently recalled? I meant to inquire at the demo, then went off on other tangents and forgot. Is this true? I'm used to being able to recall a timeline in each M/E and Master as well, have all four paused on a user hold, and I can trigger each in any order whenever necessary. Again, I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. 3) Someone mentioned clean feeds, and that improvements are coming: It's great that the various M/E outputs are mappable. I'd like to take it up a notch and be able to re-enter clean feeds or clean feed plus one keyer back into an effect of that same M/E, without having to trick the switcher by looping the output back into the switcher. For example, on a split screen, double box, big/little (whatever), I'd like to key the artwork over the DME, then take the clean feed of the M/E, feed it into one of the boxes of the DME, so that I can dissolve in that box without burning another M/E. Again, it seems like I can trick the switcher by looping the clean back into the switcher as just another source, but it'd be nice not to have to go through the trouble. XtenDD is good in this area, and Kalypso's M/E outs are pretty impressive. 4) I'd like to see the frame memory increased. I've gotten too reliant I guess, on our Ram Recorders to store looping animation, logos, ots backgrounds, etc. Just seems like you can never have enough storage. I think that's all I've got, or at least, all I can remember. Like I said, I was impressed with the product, and it's great to hear that the company has strong listening skills and is very responsive to customer needs (and wants).

Hey Guys! I can shed some light on Bill's Kahuna comments. I've been using it for over a year. There is no auto recall button like you are used to seeing elsewhere, it does it automatically. For example, each ME allows you select which levels you want in your D-Mem ( Snell equivalent of E-Mem). If I store it with, say, Key 2 and BG selected, that's what I'll get back and it won't affect the other keyers. Also, you could do the 5 box with 2 keyers if you get the DVE option. It can do a 4 box and then you could use the transform engine of another keyer to give you the 5th box. Each keyer has its own transform engine, so, for example, the 4 ME version has 16 transform engines.

[quote="Bill D"]Kahuna, I saw at NAB last year, one thing I remember was that it didn't have an auto recall I don't think. I know there has been a lot of improvement over the last year so a lot may have changed.[/quote] If by "Auto Recall" you mean recalling a memory to a specific M/E all the time, that is something Kahuna has always had. You would save the memory as a GMEM and it will recall it to the same place every time without telling it where to recall. There has also been a lot of talk about multiple DVE channels per M/E. You can fly up to 10 video sources on one M/E on Kahuna - 8 in the 3D DVEs and 2 more in Resize Engines. Cheers, -= Ken =-

Rick, just wondering if the Sony version of Double Take will work on an "old" original 8000 or does it need an "A" series??

[quote="Unger"]Sony's p-2 timeline still has issues in my opinion even on the 8k (processing speed, and adding multiple register recall on 1 timeline). Not a big fan of the "action rewind" option. I feel the Kalypso has a better system for timelines running Perph devices. In the sports world you'd rather have a lance than the machine control because these clients come in with "cueman" and want to load their 57+ registers....it's a pain in the ass to type the in's/out's in machine control when your in a time crunch and camera folk want to get to their 3hr lunch!(just a small poke there..I also do camera). The internal DPM's I like but clients don't seem to understand that there is no more crosspoint for the DVE when they ask on a whim "just punch up the DVE" Those are my cons , but overall I really like the Sony..Especially it's reliability..never crashed on me where the Kalypso has. Love the shotbox and it's versatility (being able to call up just about anything anywhere..ie..snapshots & effects). The mapping I heard will get a little easier with updated software. Setting up clean feeds will also be simplified. And a "wing" attachment option is on it's way where you can assign any source (example: still store) to create the wings for a 4:3 source on a HD show. Overall Sony vs. Kalypso....winner=Kalypso by a nose[/quote] The mapping on the 8000 got much better after v5 (released about 4 months ago). It now features very cool things like INSERT and DELETE so if someone adds a camera at the last minute you don't have to re-map the entire *&$% switcher, you can just insert the new crosspoint and everything moves down one. The "wings" feature you mentioned has also been out since v5.x and it's called SIDE FLAGS. It is very, very cool. Basically, you tell the switcher which sources are 4:3 originals and it will automatically crop off the outer edges and replace them with one of the three utility busses on each M/E. You can then have any video source as "wings" for those sources and the best part is since each M/E has unique utility busses, the wings video can be different on a M/E by M/E basis. If you get really creative with internal buss linking, you could conceivably, have a different video for each crosspoint. Very cool. I have just learned that Sony will (finally) be releasing its answer to Double Take at NAB this year. From what I have been told, it's pretty much the same thing except for a couple of interesting items.... a) When in the split M/E mode you can have the same keyer on both sides of the M/E at the same time. I can't tell you how many times I have banged my head using a Kalypso because I had to duplicate keyers to get the same key on both the A and C outputs at the same time!!! b) Re-entering the secondary output into the main output wihtout having to connect a physical cable. The secondary outputs just show up in the mapping tables and you can map them to buttons. I'm very impressed with the way Sony has modified its software in such a relatively short period of time to address customer's requests (well, except for double take). They were first with Macros (by a couple of years over Kalypso), first with FrameStore thumbnails, first with a non Windows-based touchscreen (YES! No more crashing!!!! And, the touchscreen is extremely fast, especially in the FrameStore menu), first with register editing, etc. Is the Sony perfect? No. There's a lot of things I'd like to see but I'm not worried becuase they listen. In my opinion, Sony has stepped up to the plate and taken the place of where GVG used to be in terms of listening to customers and consistently delivering top-notch stuff. With few exception Sony has delivered everything they have promised on the 8000. You can't say that about too many switcher manufacturers. Things just haven't been the same since Thomson bought GVG. Just my $.02. RE

Sony's p-2 timeline still has issues in my opinion even on the 8k (processing speed, and adding multiple register recall on 1 timeline). Not a big fan of the "action rewind" option. I feel the Kalypso has a better system for timelines running Perph devices. In the sports world you'd rather have a lance than the machine control because these clients come in with "cueman" and want to load their 57+ registers....it's a pain in the ass to type the in's/out's in machine control when your in a time crunch and camera folk want to get to their 3hr lunch!(just a small poke there..I also do camera). The internal DPM's I like but clients don't seem to understand that there is no more crosspoint for the DVE when they ask on a whim "just punch up the DVE" Those are my cons , but overall I really like the Sony..Especially it's reliability..never crashed on me where the Kalypso has. Love the shotbox and it's versatility (being able to call up just about anything anywhere..ie..snapshots & effects). The mapping I heard will get a little easier with updated software. Setting up clean feeds will also be simplified. And a "wing" attachment option is on it's way where you can assign any source (example: still store) to create the wings for a 4:3 source on a HD show. Overall Sony vs. Kalypso....winner=Kalypso by a nose

Just an editorial note: since this topic is dealing with various switcher manufacturers, I moved it to the general TD forum. -JH

[quote="RedRaider"]Which switcher is better for grpahic intensive, video heavy, fast paced newscasts with multiple live shots needing to be seen at once (5 box)? Just curious if anyone has any opinions.[/quote] I am sure Kalypso and Sony could easily handle any newscast. The biggest thing you mention is the DVE 5 box. On a Kalypso you would need to burn 5 keyers to make that happen. On the Sony I think you can do it on 2 keyers (4 channels on one keyer or one combined output, plus 5th channel on another keyer). This would if you optioned for all 8 channels still leave you 3 more channels. Kalypso maxes out at 6. You can do a lot more with Sony DME's, dme wipes, internal or external feeding, etc One thing that Kalypso does very well is partitioing ME's, which you can easily change between on the panel. Kahuna, I saw at NAB last year, one thing I remember was that it didn't have an auto recall I don't think. I know there has been a lot of improvement over the last year so a lot may have changed. I would either take a visit to NAB next month or get demos and ask a lot of questions, best way to see for yourself Bill

I'll have to agree with Rick here. I've been a GVG guy my entire life but I just received two days of formal training on the SONY 8000 and fell in love. And this from a TD who would avoid the 7350 like the plague. In my opinion the 8000 has features that Kalypso should have had. The Shot Box is incredibly powerful, the machine control is great (and will be even better really soon ;-) and the integrated transform engines do exactly what internal DVE should do! The only downfall as I see it is with regard to committing DVE channels to keyers and some of the limitations that can tie your hands (especially with only 4 channels). Otherwise it is a VERY good switcher and, in my opinion, definitely surpasses Kalypso in many ways. John

[quote="RedRaider"]Which switcher is better for grpahic intensive, video heavy, fast paced newscasts with multiple live shots needing to be seen at once (5 box)? Just curious if anyone has any opinions.[/quote] On the Sony 8000/9000 you can easily do a 5 or even 8-box DVE effect on a single M/E.... all without having to use another manufacturer's DVE. Since the 8000/9000 has combiners on their DVEs, it makes efficient use of keyer resources. For instance, most switchers with built in DVEs can only have a single channel of DVE on a single keyer. This makes it very difficult to do even a 4-box if you have to add a CG or any other layer on the effect. It also makes using depth or "orbiting" effects much more difficult as you would have to program in a timeline key priority changes. With a combiner, this is all automatic as combiners "understand" 3-D space. The Sony's shotbox is the coolest thing I've seen in a very long time. Not only is it REAL fast, but the buttons have color LCDs in them so you can actualy name the effects and have then shown on the buttons. The shotbox as 4 banks of 24 of these LCD buttons. The Sony's device control is great, too. You don't need P-Buss or an external controller. It speaks VTR and VDCP protocols so you can get the clip names from your server right on the touchscreen. You can even use the trackball and outer ring (called the Z-ring) to jog and shuttle a tape deck just like from the front of a VTR panel. I heard last week that they're going to show a new drop-in control panel module dedicated for VTR control at NAB. I have been very, very happy using the Sony 8000. Great product. I highly encourage you to take a look at it. RE