Gee and it was all going mostly nicely. Until the personal attacks started. I will tolerate criticism on products, that's what we are here for. But there is no reason to get personal or make stupid claims about someone or some company. Everyone has their opinion and experience with certain gear and companies. That doesn't mean it is the way it is for everyone. We CAN all play nice and if you don't, well, then please go somewhere else. This is a place of intelligent, highly trained professionals. I am sometimes amazed at how small and narrow-minded we can get. If you feel I have been too harsh or not enough please let me know. I do care. -JH PS: It was Sergei's post that was the offender, everyone else was being cool.

[quote="Sergei Morozov"]Well for what it is worth I can't name one td in the sports world that can stand sony.[/quote] Come visit Minneapolis some time. Until very recently we had three trucks serving this market with Sonys in them. They just recently got sold and might be coming to a market near you. Look for a big Juntunen Mobile Television logo on the side, at least until it gets painted over.

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"]Rick, There are many features that I feel Sony has Grass beat at (better Frame Memory, Sideflags, etc...). Yet, many many more that are simply a knock-off of Grass, yet Sony has to name differently or vary a little simply to save themself from a lawsuit.[/quote] Sony can't seem to catch a break here.... When they came out with the 7000 series, people complained that it wasn't enough like a 3000 or a 4000 and told them it had to more like them to be used. So they come out with the 8000/9000 series which they tried to makes some of those features similar becuase of customer requests and now you're saying that it's TOO much like them. They can't win. [quote="Lou Delgresiano"]My hatred comes from one simple fact. Sony's product is clearly engineer oriented, where Grass Valley's Kalypso is very much user oriented. Button layout, button colors, button labeling, menus, placement of keyers, and the list goes on and on, that Grass does better.[/quote] Again, I respect your opinion but you must accept the fact that everyone does not share your opinion. for every person you say that thinks that GVGs interface is better I can probably show you a person that thinks that Sony's is better. I want to specifically address two items you mentioned.... M/E Button colors and Menus. There are two very good reasons that the buttons are not colored on a Sony switcher panel..... Frist, becuase each M/E row can be mapped to something else. It would be maddening to have M/E 2 colored yellow but map M/E 1 to that row (and yes, there are a number of legitimate reasons for doing so). The second reason is that Sony uses a red tally system as opposed to a brightness system. Again, it's all your preference. Neither one is necessarily right or wrong. You also mentioned menus. I can sight person after person that say Sony's menus are much cleaner and MUCH, MUCH more stable than a Kalypso. Truth is, you cannot go by a week in this country without hearing of a Kalypso whose Windows-based GUI crashed before or during a show. The Sony uses Linux and, while no product is ever perfect, does not have a reputation for crashing. Next time you're in front of a Kalypso, please press the STILL STORE menu and start counting how long it takes not only for the menu to come up but for the thumbnails to display. Then try it on a Sony.... it's instantaneous. [quote="Lou Delgresiano"]At the Sony booth the poor kid giving the demo had about as tough a time as I did when I first used it. A convention goer asked if it was possible to do a copy from M/E 3 to M/E 2. He had to squint and look at the menu buttons, before I finally just hit it for him. He's selling it, and I had only four days to teach myself on it.[/quote] Not working for Sony I can't speak for that however I do know they frequently hire college kids to take care of the "routine" demos and questions then call in an employee or a freelancer if they can't answer. Incedentally, the way you copy M/E 3 to M/E 2 is by holding down the SNAPSHOT on M/E 3 and touching the SNAPSHOT button on M/E 2. [quote="Lou Delgresiano"]As for NEP, George may very well tell the marketing people anything for a soundbite, but my comments stem from those of the EICs on their trucks. To date, I have yet to meet a single EIC that would suggest putting an MVS-8000 in an NEP truck. Ask Rich the SS-24 EIC and he'll most likely agree, NEP did not want it...CBS did. Ask most of CBS' TDs and they'll agree. Even the CBS TD demo-ing for Grass did not want it. I'm not sure about Jonas, I don't know him. The Sony rep told the CBS TDs something along the lines of "mark my words there will be an 8000 in your trucks." Even talking with the NMT people that were there designing HD-12 for CBS they said that against their wishes it's a done deal that CBS will have a Sony on their truck.[/quote] And as I said before, GVG doesn't have deals? The truth is, operators are having less and less say in what equipment is used whether it's on trucks or in a fixed location. You still have to give these companies credit though, they wouldn't make these deals if the stuff didn't work -- and make them money. Just becuase a few people tell you they didn't want something doesn't mean every one doesn't like it. Also, in the end, the truck companies are just middle-men. It's their customers that are ultimately driving everything, including equipment decisions. [quote="Lou Delgresiano"]I recall after NAB 2004 that the outlook for the 8000 was not good, many on this board predicted its death. There was question at that time if they'd continue pushing sales.[/quote] That's funny becuase, again, I can produce an equal number of people that keep saying the 8000 is getting better and better. There are rampent rumors going around that GV is discontinuing the Kalypso and replacing it with Kayak. Yes, they will absolutely deny those rumors. But rumors in this very small industry tend to be more right than wrong. In regards to the outlook for the 8000, the same could easily be said for Grass Valley. Here was a company that was on its last legs two years ago. One foot in the grave and, by their own admission, close to bankruptcy. They were then bought out by Thomson (for a mere $60 Million) a company that is gobbling up other companies trying to buy a big-name reputation in the broadcast industry that other companies (not just Sony) have earned over the decades. So, two years ago, Thomson buys Grass Valley soley for the name. They are slapping the "Grass Valley" name on everything from Cameras to transmitters to mousepads. They are discontinuing nearly every product that was not designed and built n Europe. Let alone that Thomson is near the top of the list in complaints to the WTO becuase of selling below cost (i.e. dumping) and receiving billions in French government subsidies so they don't have to live in the real world of actually making a profit. There is enough room in the world for both GVG and Sony. Neither is likely going away. There is absolutely no way that, as you imply, every single place that has a Sony switcher had it "forced" upon them. I know of places that still have the 7000 and tuly love it. Regards, Rick

[quote="Rick Edwards"][quote="Lou Delgresiano"]Sony was quick to mention everyone who's using them, but many of those were corporate deals where the end user had no input at all. Sony's been on a contract push with NBC, CBS, Scripps-Howard, Gannett and others where you could have your entire staff say, "No, we want a Kalypso," and a Sony ends up there because of their deal. Even truck vendors (like NEP) don't want them, but the networks require them because of their contractual agreement to use Sony. I get the feeling the 8000 was about to die until they started going contract crazy about two years ago.[/quote] Lou, I completely and respectively, disagree with you. The 8000 was abslutely not ready to die and corporate deals (as you put it) is and was not the reason for its popularity. I happen to know for a fact that it is very rare that Sony does not have to do a demo for a switcher, even when there is some kind of corporate arrangement (which, by the way GVG/Thomson has plenty of, too). So most deals are won fair and square. GVG has been claiming at NAB that they have delivered about 700 Kalypsos. Sony has delivered over 1000 MVS systems. Certainly every one of those was not some seedy corporate deal. I think you are being completely unfair to the folks at Sony and the hard work they have put into their product. Again, with respect, I looked at all most of your posts to this forum and you have not said one positive thing about Sony or their switchers. Have you actually USED an 8000, especially in the last couple of years? I just don't understand where your hatred comes from. The fact is that GVG (well, actually Thomson) also has many corporate deals where TDs have said they want a Sony and, in their words, a Kalypso was forced on them. The other fact is, that with rare exceptions, installations that have an 8000 or 9000 love it (even if that love took a little while to kindle). You mentioned that truck companies (especially NEP) "hate" their 8000's. Perhaps we can give George Hoover a call, have him join the forum, and comment personally. I think you may find that you have been speaking out of school. In fact, according to the press release... "This is a powerful and incredibly stable switcher, with a mature set of features," said George Hoover, senior vice president of engineering for NEP. "It's exactly what our clients require." I assure you that if the 8000 was the terrible product you make it out to be, it would not be used anywhere -- agreement or not. Heck, the agreement would not have been made in the first place. You are not giving these major companies (many of whom I assume you get paid by from time to time) enough credit. That is all I have to say and I will not respond further regarding this. I don't want a war, I just could no longer sit back and watch you unfairly slam good people and a good product. Regards, Rick Edwards.[/quote] Rick, I appreciate your comments. I have switched on an 8000, as recent as Thursday of last week and will again on Thursday of next week. There are many features that I feel Sony has Grass beat at (better Frame Memory, Sideflags, etc...). Yet, many many more that are simply a knock-off of Grass, yet Sony has to name differently or vary a little simply to save themself from a lawsuit. I know when I first touched the 8000 I was told, "tough to get used to, but once you do, you'll love it." My hatred comes from one simple fact. Sony's product is clearly engineer oriented, where Grass Valley's Kalypso is very much user oriented. Button layout, button colors, button labeling, menus, placement of keyers, and the list goes on and on, that Grass does better. At the Sony booth the poor kid giving the demo had about as tough a time as I did when I first used it. A convention goer asked if it was possible to do a copy from M/E 3 to M/E 2. He had to squint and look at the menu buttons, before I finally just hit it for him. He's selling it, and I had only four days to teach myself on it. As for NEP, George may very well tell the marketing people anything for a soundbite, but my comments stem from those of the EICs on their trucks. To date, I have yet to meet a single EIC that would suggest putting an MVS-8000 in an NEP truck. Ask Rich the SS-24 EIC and he'll most likely agree, NEP did not want it...CBS did. Ask most of CBS' TDs and they'll agree. Even the CBS TD demo-ing for Grass did not want it. I'm not sure about Jonas, I don't know him. The Sony rep told the CBS TDs something along the lines of "mark my words there will be an 8000 in your trucks." Even talking with the NMT people that were there designing HD-12 for CBS they said that against their wishes it's a done deal that CBS will have a Sony on their truck. I recall after NAB 2004 that the outlook for the 8000 was not good, many on this board predicted its death. There was question at that time if they'd continue pushing sales. Well, as we now know they did push sales, through corporate contracts. NBC, CBS, Gannett, etc...That is a fact. Whether it was back handed, or just the lowest bid, it's a deal. Not a purchase-by-purchase deal for these companies. They are contractually obligated in these shops to purchase a Sony. Recently a Gannett station had everyone involved in the design and layout of a new control room all agreed hands down, Grass Valley Kalypso HD. Gannett corporate nixed the idea for Sony. So it may have been fair and square at corporate but not at the station.

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"]Sony was quick to mention everyone who's using them, but many of those were corporate deals where the end user had no input at all. Sony's been on a contract push with NBC, CBS, Scripps-Howard, Gannett and others where you could have your entire staff say, "No, we want a Kalypso," and a Sony ends up there because of their deal. Even truck vendors (like NEP) don't want them, but the networks require them because of their contractual agreement to use Sony. I get the feeling the 8000 was about to die until they started going contract crazy about two years ago.[/quote] Lou, I completely and respectively, disagree with you. The 8000 was abslutely not ready to die and corporate deals (as you put it) is and was not the reason for its popularity. I happen to know for a fact that it is very rare that Sony does not have to do a demo for a switcher, even when there is some kind of corporate arrangement (which, by the way GVG/Thomson has plenty of, too). So most deals are won fair and square. GVG has been claiming at NAB that they have delivered about 700 Kalypsos. Sony has delivered over 1000 MVS systems. Certainly every one of those was not some seedy corporate deal. I think you are being completely unfair to the folks at Sony and the hard work they have put into their product. Again, with respect, I looked at all most of your posts to this forum and you have not said one positive thing about Sony or their switchers. Have you actually USED an 8000, especially in the last couple of years? I just don't understand where your hatred comes from. The fact is that GVG (well, actually Thomson) also has many corporate deals where TDs have said they want a Sony and, in their words, a Kalypso was forced on them. The other fact is, that with rare exceptions, installations that have an 8000 or 9000 love it (even if that love took a little while to kindle). You mentioned that truck companies (especially NEP) "hate" their 8000's. Perhaps we can give George Hoover a call, have him join the forum, and comment personally. I think you may find that you have been speaking out of school. In fact, according to the press release... "This is a powerful and incredibly stable switcher, with a mature set of features," said George Hoover, senior vice president of engineering for NEP. "It's exactly what our clients require." I assure you that if the 8000 was the terrible product you make it out to be, it would not be used anywhere -- agreement or not. Heck, the agreement would not have been made in the first place. You are not giving these major companies (many of whom I assume you get paid by from time to time) enough credit. I don't want a war, I just could no longer sit back and watch you unfairly slam good people and a good product. Regards, Rick Edwards.

[quote="Rick Edwards"]They showed a feature called Side Flags that puts the edges on 4:3 material without using any keyer or any other switcher resources. When I went to GVG's they showed the same thing but, after much pressing of their demo guy, he finally admitted they were using a keyer to accomplish the same thing. On the 8000A, side flags, I was told and shown, happens before the crosspoint on hardware that was built for only that purpose. When you tell the switcher that an input was originally 4:3, it will replace the edges with one of the utility busses on the M/E. So you can put anything, including live video, into the side flags. You can dissolve, wipe or even DVE between a 16:9 and a 4:3 or even two 4:3 sources. All this while not using any keyers.[/quote] I pressed the Grass people about this too. Being that it's a function of engineering and not a keyer/wipe. Grass would have you burn an M/E or M/E SEC feed for sideflagging/pillaring. Their reasoning was why burn a utility bus for the Sony graphic. Isn't that what it's for, a utility? Granted in sports you only need maybe one or two sources sideflagged typically during set-up and pre-pro, but do a news show or even a sports news show integrated with a sports program and you have situations where you need a lot of sideflagging. Sony was quick to mention everyone who's using them, but many of those were corporate deals where the end user had no input at all. Sony's been on a contract push with NBC, CBS, Scripps-Howard, Gannett and others where you could have your entire staff say, "No, we want a Kalypso," and a Sony ends up there because of their deal. Even truck vendors (like NEP) don't want them, but the networks require them because of their contractual agreement to use Sony. I get the feeling the 8000 was about to die until they started going contract crazy about two years ago.

From the Sony 8000A side: v5.3, due to be released in June, has Sony's answer to Double Take but they were quick to point out that "Multi-Program II overcomes some limitations in Double Take". For instance, Sony can have a single key be on both the primary and secondary outputs (in fact, on all four PGM outputs) on the M/E at the same time wihtout have to burn an additional keyer if you want the same key on primary & secondary. Also, I saw the coolest thing.... Since the Sony panel's M/Es can be configured to be ANY m/e on the switcher, they showed M/E 1's Main output on what would normally be M/E 1 and M/E 1's secondary output mapped to where M/E 2 would normally be. Indeed, they showed how you could easily buy a 2 M/E 8000A and a 4 M/E panel ( or even a 3 ME 8000A and a 4 ME panel) and fill the panel with both primary and secondary outputs. Very, very cool. Of course they also showed that you could have a 4 M/E switcher with TWO 4 M/E panels both mapped with primary & secondary. They showed a feature called Side Flags that puts the edges on 4:3 material without using any keyer or any other switcher resources. When I went to GVG's they showed the same thing but, after much pressing of their demo guy, he finally admitted they were using a keyer to accomplish the same thing. On the 8000A, side flags, I was told and shown, happens before the crosspoint on hardware that was built for only that purpose. When you tell the switcher that an input was originally 4:3, it will replace the edges with one of the utility busses on the M/E. So you can put anything, including live video, into the side flags. You can dissolve, wipe or even DVE between a 16:9 and a 4:3 or even two 4:3 sources. All this while not using any keyers. They also have a new feature that allows you to assign up to 4 switcher regions to a single region assign button. It's pretty cool for things like assigning video and key for two servers to a single button or Primary and Secondary ME partitions to a single button. The demo guy did talk a little bit about features coming later in the year: They have a new device control module coming around January that has a REAL jog/shuttle knob with "clicks" just like a VTR. It also has timecode displays so you can see what you're doing on the panel instead of having to use a menu. In v6, the Frame Memory capacity will expand to 2066 frames which is 68 seconds. He also said that it would support embedded audio in the frame memory clips. They also talked about a feature called Floating Key for v6. It allows you to re-assign keyer resources from an upstream ME to DSKs. So, as he described it, if you know you're not going to use all your keys on M/E 1 for your show you can re-assign a couple of them to be DSK 5 & 6. All Mobile Video's new flagship truck was in the Sony Booth and it had a 8000A. Very impressive truck. They also announced that NEP's newest high-end truck for NBC would have a 8000A and that MTV's Pegasus truck as the 8000. I did not know that David Letterman and Good Morning America and Nightline were cut on 8000's either. The folks at the Sony booth were very helpful and quite positive. All and all I thought it was very good NAB this year. RE

Being an indie filmmaker on the side I've been following the battle between all of the compact HD camcorders that all the manufacturers are targeting at indie filmmakers... (Think Canon's XL1/2, only in HD) JVC was suposed to introduce their latest and greatest at NAB this year, has anyone managed to get a glimpse of it?

The Kauhna was equally amazing seeing it at NAB, as well as the demo in LA. The one thing that was new for them at NAB is the ablity to have embeded audio on thier clips stores. So something like a fast foreword move, can now be LOADED into the switcher, and have audio along with it. Very cool stuff. There was NO XtenDD stuff... Sad to say... Looks like GVG/Thompson is really pushing their Kayak serries, and the kaylpso, as opposed to the XtenDD. Good times at NAB though... Good Times. :)

The big one I caught with Grass is Kalypso skipping version unlucky 13 to go to 14. 14 will have P-Bus device patching similar to source patching. The other cool stuff escapes me. I'm thinking there was a mention of ability to separate anything on the board to be in a timeline (like indepedent keyer timelines). There was also talk with P-Bus doing similar to Sony where you can program what the p-bus recall is, so you'd have the ability on E-Mem 10 to recall P-Bus 25, or whatever, and not be forced to do 1-1 recalls with devices. Sony MVS-8000 talks of 1200+ frames on frame memory in a free upgrade to V.6. V.6 will offer a feature similar to Kalypso's Double Take for the MVS-8000 for an additional cost.