It's possible to do just like Cleveland and have a small horse trailer that stores the cameras, and A2 gear. I believe the Sports Time Ohio/WKYC horse trailer came out of the hopes that they could move between Jacob's Field and Quicken Loans Arena when they got the Cavs. Only flaw with that plan was once the Indians pulled away from FSN, FSN threw a ton of money at every sport in Ohio they didn't have. They even grabbed small HS football games that Sports Time Ohio told newspapers they were interested in. Suddenly STO didn't have the Cavs, all they had was a horse trailer parked at Jacob's Field. But what do they care, they have every non-network exclusive game for the next ten years. One thing STO and the Indians realized is that there's a ton of money in ad revenue, your first commercial break pretty much pays for most production costs. When this first all came about and the Indians threatened to start their own network FSN came back and DOUBLED their offer...making the Indians think, "wait, you can just double your money like that? How much is this deal really worth?"

Several flaws in the centralized control room system. 1) At the venue you need cam ops, A2's, stage manager, at least one engineer, and maybe a studio talent. You also NEED cameras and audio gear. What do you do with the cameras and mics after the game? Let's say team X goes on the road for nine days, no games in the arena. How expensive are LDK-6000's and 86x lenses and all the support gear? How much does it cost shipping those thing by SOS after each game to another arena? Hmm, you have an engineer, cameras and audio gear LOCAL, that makes up a big part of a truck. 2) How many comtrol rooms would be need in the "Production Center"? Do you build for the normal or the abnormal? You might need ten rooms for a FSN/FSN NHL or NBA night, but what happens when you have multiple leagues, April or May, NBA/NHL/MLB all going on at once? If the local TD/EVS/graphics pools die away, could you even use a truck to locally cover an event?

mike, were not chasing triax now (fiber) ; ) nobody mentioned travel...networks are cheaping out on flights now...i fear that if there was another incident like 9/11 most of us would become regional. jonas

[quote="jwillis"]I also wonder just how you will keep a Producer and/or Exec Producer happy if the proud boast "I was at Superbowl" becomes, "I watched Superbowl from a darkened room in New York"! John[/quote] I wouldn't worry too much about the high profile shows like the superbowl but more like ESPN/FSN/etc college hoops. Either way, I'm sure the execs that make the decisions will still get their nice luxury suites. I would hate to see centralized productions happen but we've all seen how the bottom line is king. How many times do you hear seasoned tv veterans talk about the "good ole days." I'm sure there are things going on now that they never would've thought the networks would do. I imagine one day, when a camera isn't making it back to the truck, you won't be replacing triax- instead you'll be checking it's IP address on the wireless network. If somebody goes to the bean counters and says look what we can do and how much money we can save- I can't imagine them not doing it. I hear repeatedly from producers and directors how little control they have of what's covered and how it's covered. Shows have become more standardized and formatted. You see shows lose set days and decrease in facilities and nobody at home is writing any complaint letters- they just want to watch the game. People will sit at their computer and listen to a radio stream and watch a graphic scoreboard with a virtual football field showing field position. Turn on the TV on saturday afternoon and you can't escape sports. Each year it seems there are more and more games available at any one time. It's hard to get good ratings in that kind of environment so you have to make the shows cheaper. Look at NBC's recently announced plans for primetime: Less scripted shows and more game and reality shows. One day we'll look back and reminisce about the good ole days.

[quote="GlenW"]The Cleveland Indians production, I believe, is done out of the local NBC affiliate in Cleveland. All the cameras and audio are fibered to the control room at the station and the show is produced out of there. I believe that only leaves camera operators and a video op at the stadium, the rest at the station. This was done as a partnership between the local station and the Cleveland Indians, who started there own sports channel.[/quote] This was written up in "Television Broadcast" magazine. They have an insert in the trade called "SportsTV Production". It use to be a stand alone mag. and also features the Truck of the month! Sportstime Ohio (STO) is the channel. They do have a small truck where "video" shades and then the cams are sent to WKYC. Anyone remember, say 10-12 years ago when the league(s)- believe it was the NBA, said NO to in-house production facilities? Pretty sure my memory is correct on this one... It had to do with remote trucks keeping up on the latest equipment compared to in-house facilities since they had competition in the marketplace. Michigan State Univ. has their In-House production at the basketball arena, football signals are fibered back & forth. Central Control makes since for an in-house fan cam setup. Scott S PS On the road the Indians did use trucks...

Lou, I'm lucky so far. I work in the DC/Baltimore area and the only duals we have seen was when the O's played the Nationals and the O's network, MASN, did both teams shows. What was interesting was for the one exhibition game we had one of NMT's SBS trucks. For the regular season inter-league games we each had a real truck but we did a dual. The only "dual" we have done for NHL or NBA was when someone forgot to book a truck for the visiting show and we did two shows on a 3000 and a 110 out of one truck. THAT was a real interesting day. =(

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]How long do you think it would take for those people to become as creative as a turnip?[/quote] The duals are a real hot bed of creativity now. :)

One flaw with the concept of a centralized production center would be all of the producers and directors and technical staff, other then camera ops and A2's would be in one location. Maybe even the talent, only sideline reports/studio interviewers would be on site. How long do you think it would take for those people to become as creative as a turnip? Part of the creative aspect is being in a different city, working with different crew each game or series. One director said that duals will stop when enough team owners realize that their 2 1/2- 3 hour commercial, the game, isn't being produced well enough and that they aren't being served as well as they could be. Comcast has lost the Orioles rights to the O's own network. Cleveland started a new network this past season. From what I heard, the Twins went back to FSN only to get a stadium built. (political pressure because their own network wasn't widely carried.) FSN also was close to having two other teams, in one city, leave and start their own network. $$$$$$ solved that. A centralized system only works if everyone plays. Right now not everyone plays.

Well, then, I guess I stand corrected.

The Cleveland Indians production, I believe, is done out of the local NBC affiliate in Cleveland. All the cameras and audio are fibered to the control room at the station and the show is produced out of there. I believe that only leaves camera operators and a video op at the stadium, the rest at the station. This was done as a partnership between the local station and the Cleveland Indians, who started there own sports channel.

Comcast Philly has their control room at the Wachovia Center, where NBA and NHL is played and they have fiber to the baseball stadium. Cameras, stage, A2 and talent are at the stadium, all other crew is at the Center, about 1/2 mile away. It works great except when the NHL had a lockout. They were renting trucks to cover college hoops, to fill the schedule. The same happened when the NBA had their labor issues a few years back.

Staples does have a control room built in (SD and HD), but it is rarely used anymore. It's partially owned by NMT, and since FSN West signed a contract with Mountain Mobile, all the home shows are done from a truck. The control room is mainly used for non-Fox (OTA) visiting shows now. And the technology hasn't been upgraded since the room was built. I asked the engineers why they haven't put an EVS Network in, and their response is "Why would we?" Not their fault, but the higher-up powers won't justify spending money for a facility that rarely works. As long as the room puts out a signal, that's good enough.

How many arenas have built in production facilities for game production, not in house video. The arena in Philly does, CSN dropped big bucks to make it HD. I think Staples Center also does. Does any other arena have fixed facilities? The old US Air Centre had them, then the facilities for the visitors went away, old technology and the home show continued to use the in house gear. At one point MSG used in house facilities for game production, now they use trucks. As Bill pointed out, a truck allows someone else to depreciate the investment.

it will happen when: CMH ≤ ROP...? (cost of making it happen) (remote ops)

The biggest problem I see with the "central control room" idea is the sheer amount of bandwidth you would need to send all those video and audio feeds back and forth, especially if you're in HD. According to my calculations the hockey show on FSN North with 7 cameras, 4 standard-def robos, arena feeds like goal overheads and penalty box cameras, and a couple DT-12s worth of audio comes out to about 12 Gb/sec. That's more bandwidth than a lot of major ISPs. It just ain't gonna happen.

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"]It's only a matter of time before duals go Olympic style and it's one single feed with different gfx and announcers. Technology is there/really catching up to do this pretty flawlessly. With more facilities going to remote fiber, it's not too crazy to think that all pro stadiums could be wired for fiber to go back to one big control room. Only cameras and audio would show up on site. Prod/Dir/TD/A1/EVS/Tape could all be in one giant control room farm in LA or something.[/quote] I think the one problem with taking remote trucks out of the show is that the technology changes so quickly. If you have to change out or build new trucks to keep up with technology how cost effective can this be done in a control room that only does baseball and basketball games. Truck companies can be rented out all year and make up for capital investments easier. If a regional sports network builds a great control room, there is a huge capital investment in that intially, plus the added costs of engineers to upkeep it. If they rent a truck then can cut a check to NEP, etc and be done with it.. Just my thoughts Bill

It's only a matter of time before duals go Olympic style and it's one single feed with different gfx and announcers. Technology is there/really catching up to do this pretty flawlessly. With more facilities going to remote fiber, it's not too crazy to think that all pro stadiums could be wired for fiber to go back to one big control room. Only cameras and audio would show up on site. Prod/Dir/TD/A1/EVS/Tape could all be in one giant control room farm in LA or something.

yes...

I read through all the posts here in this thread, and I think the most important point has been left out. The reason that producers and directors are having trouble getting the show they want out of dual feed TD's is that their expectations are too high. It's a single M/E switcher....that's it. The concept behind the dual feed should be to take the home feed during live action, to cut in your own cameras between action to follow announcer conversation and to roll in your own occasional replay. Unfortunately the expectations have turned into being able to produce the same exact show you get when you're at home with a full production switcher at your disposal.....all the effects, transitions, split screens, pre-pro'd packages, etc. I also think that all the TD's who are breaking their backs to accomodate this high expectation are only helping to perpetuate a situation that is bad for everyone who works that part of this business. In short, if you want the show you get when you're at home, bring in a separate truck. If not then be happy with whatever show you get. But that's just my opinion. Mike

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]The sad part of this is that there are enough inexperienced director or producer wannabes who think they can replace someone with years of experience and the beancounters don't care if the replacement is good enough as long as the new body follows the company mantra. There are a few production folks who for some reason are no longer doing shows that they did for 15-20 years. Maybe they questioned dual feeds once too often? Maybe some other reason...[/quote] Cheaper to pay less experienced folks perhaps???

I'm always shocked that for the dual feeds they don't send just one AD to coordinate the visiting shows. The producer in many respects is so handcuffed that they're just a wasted seat in tight quarters. Though why pay an AD when you've already got the producer and director contracted.

The sad part of this is that there are enough inexperienced director or producer wannabes who think they can replace someone with years of experience and the beancounters don't care if the replacement is good enough as long as the new body follows the company mantra. There are a few production folks who for some reason are no longer doing shows that they did for 15-20 years. Maybe they questioned dual feeds once too often? Maybe some other reason...

Jonas... If you are a Fox staff person, and a little birdie from LA whispers that you've been complaining too much and too loudly, your best advice is to listen closely. mg

I am not too familiar ( aside from reading about it here) with the dual feeds, so I apoligize in advance if the below would never work. Mike wrote in a previous post...."You then manually select the two cameras for the split. You may be able to have the macro remember the fader bar position . Not sure about that though..." Could you have a macro double hit the Auto Trans button...and the time between the two "hits" would be the time it takes the bar to get 1/2 screen? I would think you would have to build in a macro pause, and/or change the duration of the trans to get it to work. I don't work on a switcher w/ macros normally, but this would be the same idea as when you double pump the autotrans by mistake and it pauses the transition module at that point. -Curt

I couldn't agree more. I freelance for one reason: I get to pick what I do, what feeds I work, etc. and I don't have a "job". So to say it's not a good idea to be too vocal because you want to keep your job is saying that you'd rather be a staffer than a freelancer (just my opinion). I've been on both sides of a few duals, maybe 4 or 5 of them, and I was extremely vocal, every time, about how shitty a situation it is. I also don't do them anymore, but only because the pay on them sucks. If I'm going to essentially create two shows I damn sure better get paid more than the current NY away feed rate. If the TD ranks are thin, as is claimed above, and none of us want to do duals, where the hell are they going to find guys to TD them? At some point you have to make a choice - do the duals and stop complaining about it, or don't do the duals. If every TD refused to do duals, I think you'd be shocked at how quickly they went away. Of course, that will never happen, because no one trusts everyone else enough to stand with them and say "I won't do duals." Damn shame, that is.

DDR to a split: The trick, I think, is to make all of your wipes go to whatever's in preview, respecting the next transition delegation, and to not get too set in your ways in terms of which keyer does what. So here's how I'd do it. The DDR transition is a macro that cues and fires the lance, keys the ddr and presses auto trans to transition to whatever's in preview. Keyer 4 is both DDR and tele, it punches DDR to do transitions then punches tele afterward. If tele dies you can use source patch to put linear black into the tele crosspoint. The left side of the split is background bus, right side a masked keyer 2, split graphic in keyer 3, with font remaining in keyer 1 for consistency's sake. Have a macro set this up in preview, then call your DDR macro. A DVEous on a dual? Ha, even home show doesn't get a DVEous anymore. It would make things about 50 times easier, though, which is why you'll never, ever get one.

is there such thing as complaining too much and too loudly? preface: i do not td 'duals' however, one of the things i have learned over the years is that if you do not stand up for yourself nobody will. complain! when it gets to the point that i can't td shows and love doing it, i will have to teach english in a foreign country. (might be soon ; ) jonas

Thanks for everyone's very thoughtful answers. Last weekend in Atlanta on a non-dual series, 3 of the 4 days there was a TD-in-training sitting with our guy in the truck for virtually the entire setup/pre-production period. Unfortunately that's incredibly rare. The duals haven't exactly been embraced by the FSN production crews, but we all realize that we have to do them and for political reasons (read: keeping our jobs) it's not a good idea to be too vocal in our objections. I have already been warned that I was complaining too much and too loudly, and being not completely stupid, I got the message. I definitely agree that the TD ranks in general are thinner than they should be. We do enough non-duals, and I have encountered enough "button-pushers," that I echo the overall concerns as well. In fact, I will extend that to the entire remote business. It's getting harder and harder to find qualified crews. I'm amazed at the amount of positions that have to be covered by out-of-towners because there aren't enough people available. The explosion in programming and production has created quite a seller's market for talent in every crew position. That's another reason the duals take a back seat. mg

[quote="Scott Dailey"]Hi Guys, Now if I could just figre out how Bernstein flies off of a replay to a split screen... Scott[/quote] OK, just a thought. Not in front of a Kalypso so let's chew on this concept. Logic says that a "normal" TD would have K1 set for their CG1, K2-CG2 changing to replay branding on effects, K3- DDR (whatever brand) K4-Tele. With one M/E how can you DDR effect to a split that uses BOTH the A Bus and the B Bus at the same time? Now Bernstein isn't "normal". He thinks different. If we have macros available to us then we could fire the Lance via a macro. We change our key sources as well using one. We key the primary EVS channel full screen making sure that the DDR is on top of the keyer with the keyed EVS. Below, in PRIORITY is the split bar.You then manually select the two cameras for the split. You may be able to have the macro remember the fader bar position . Not sure about that though... By keying the EVS we take it from the A Bus giving us the ability to do whatever on the A Bus we want. Now, if one has a DVEous available, then it is easy. Just do everything inside that thing and don't key it.

[quote="Scott Dailey"]We could have some TD in a market somewhere create a Dual Feed Disk and give it to every Dual Feed director and it would not solve the problem. Why? because he thinks about switching totally different than you and I. A good TD is challenged by the problem set in front of him and comes up with a creative solution. (Hopefully!) The dual feed has its own unique set of problems. My resources to cut a show have been cut by almost 75%. I agree that the dual feed can be an irritation, but just like the grain of sand that causes a pearl to form inside an oyster, that irritation has given me skills I might not otherwise have developed.[/quote] Very well put Scott... that about sums it up. I think raising the bar with the addition of DDR's regionally has made a lot of TD's, better TD's. As for resources being cut, you're right on the money - 4 ME Kalypso = 100%. Your calculations are dead on. On the majority of duals they give us 1 ME... therefore, our resources have been cut by 75%! I'm not quite sure what they are expecting, but as I said, "you just do the best you can given the tools they give you and the powers that be will just have to deal with their creation." It was nice to see you again and I'm glad we could talk for a bit. Best, Rick.

Hi Guys, MG's original post discussed what can be done to train people to do Dual Feeds. I wish I had an answer, but I don't. I have to agree with the TD who has the same initials as Dave Burchett. Qualified TD's know how to train theirselves. I'm sure we have all benefitted from the knowledge and experience we have gained from other TD's. I got a great tip from Rick just the other day when he was in Arlington. It is what we do with that knowledge that sets us apart from another TD. Each one of us has unique ways we approach a problem that needs solved. That is what TDing is at its core. Solving problems. We could have some TD in a market somewhere create a Dual Feed Disk and give it to every Dual Feed director and it would not solve the problem. Why? because he thinks about switching totally different than you and I. A good TD is challenged by the problem set in front of him and comes up with a creative solution. (Hopefully!) The dual feed has its own unique set of problems. My resources to cut a show have been cut by almost 75%. I agree that the dual feed can be an irritation, but just like the grain of sand that causes a pearl to form inside an oyster, that irritation has given me skills I might not otherwise have developed. You and I can share every bit of knowledge, cunning and plain old ingenuity we have in our bag of tricks with any new TD. If he's (or her, sorry ladies) not putting those tricks in his own bag in his own way, then it will not benefit him at the end of the show. I do like the idea of shadow cutting a show. However, I would suggest putting the new TD in with an experienced Dual Feed TD as the director to get them off to a good start. Walk them through an entire Dual setup and shadow cut the show. At the end of the day they walk away with a disk they have built and understand. Sorry I don't have an answer MG. Now if I could just figre out how Bernstein flies off of a replay to a split screen... Scott

[quote="Rick Tugman"]Someone said to me recently, take away the accountants computer speadsheets and give them a pencil and paper - lets see how they do their job then. Then maybe they would understand.[/quote] Then you break the pencil and tell them to keep working. I must confess I stole that one from another poster around here. I'm not sure who first came up with the spreadsheet thing, I remember posting it myself but I'm not sure if I was just passing it along. Bringing a firewire hard drive with your elements on it sounds like a good idea. I know the Clipstore's UI is just Windows, but is the DDR itself running on that Windows box or is the Windows box just talking to some kind of dedicated hardware solution? If the former, is there any technical reason why the firewire hard drive wouldn't work?

Hi John, Lou and Dave: I'm glad you all liked the pencil/paper thing. I was in stitches when I heard it, but it's true ... lets see how they function. I look forward to seeing you in LA. I did ask Clark to try to make this the day before, but I haven't heard anything from him yet. The problem is the baseball people who are invited need to run out of town on Friday to get their respective cities for an early call on Saturday. So having this little soir?e on Wednesday and Thursday would actually work better. Dave... sorry to hear about 10HDX's SpotBox going away. I guess I spoke too soon, but maybe this will force the issue to find a way to network the ClipStore to a Firewire drive. We're back in LA on the 29th so if the SpotBox goes away by then please let me know. Lunch will be on me next time :-) John.... maybe I was a little too thorough in my replies. I too have no sympathy or anymore comments about the duals. They are what they are and they do get what they pay for as Lou said. I myself am tired of seeing swish pans on the air...it's sloppy and like I said, it's not the kind of television I want to do. Sadly, for the production teams there is no right way or wrong way to do things and they are really getting beaten up. They get it from both sides and have people breathing down their backs to make this work. They are expected to provide the same show from a 1ME switcher and 2 or 3 cameras which just isn't going to happen ever! Whether it be a little less or a little more production wise, you just do the best you can given the tools they give you and the powers that be will just have to deal with their creation. See you soon. Cheers, Rick.

[quote="Rick Tugman"]Someone said to me recently, take away the accountants computer speadsheets and give them a pencil and paper - lets see how they do their job then. Then maybe they would understand.[/quote] HA! I'm gonna have that one framed and fedexed to everyone at Pico!!! [quote="Rick Tugman"]You're lucky to have a truck that was spec'ed out with a SpotBox. I think it is the only truck in the fleet that is that way and life is surely easier on that front and indeed you are lucky.[/quote] Sadly, the spotbox is to be replaced by a pair of Clipstores as a certain producer wants 2 more channels of MaxS. I can't blame him, but it's not helping matters. John Howard, if I'm the DB of which you speak then I eagerly await your call, Baccus beckons! cheers

[quote="Rick Tugman"]Someone said to me recently, take away the accountants computer speadsheets and give them a pencil and paper - lets see how they do their job then. Then maybe they would understand.[/quote] HA!!!! I love it!

Damn, Rick! Did you go to the Bob Ennis school of "Thorough Replies???" I need a nap after reading all of that!!! :-) (BTW, I have neither simpathy for nor comments regarding "dueling" feeds - between International, NFL Films and whoever else gets some kind of clean feed, each of our NFL shows are pretty much dual feeds every week. The only difference is we're responsible for cutting ALL of their shows! :-) Love ya, mean it! Rick & DB, see ya in LA in a few weeks! I'll buy the first round! jh

Hi mg: Hope your doing well. Since you mentioned me I will respond. I'm in agreement with Bob, Lou, Mike Tiffe and Mike Cumbo and I feel exactly as they have described. It's not that I won't do Dual Feeds ... I do them, but the truth is they are a pain and when given a choice, I prefer not to be involved. I do them when my schedule permits and the truth is, there is no format we can follow. For example: I recently did a show for Atlanta. They did their Jumbotron one way. The next client was SF. Now I've I worked with these guys all over the country and in far off lands too. I know them a very very long time - as long as I know you mg. Now it comes time to roll out to the Jumotron. Low and behold they do it differently from the last client who was just in so it gets messed up because we are not in sync with each other. While the effect maybe the same, it is different on how you approach it because your trapped - you have only 1 ME to work with and you are trapped because there is one way in and only one way out! It's not as forgiving as it is with 2 MEs like the SBS trucks. You are just trapped and with every client doing these effects a little different you really have to think it though and if you don't go over everything with them and how your particular production team does things then you can really back yourself into a corner. It's not about training someone - these are just more difficult to do and the above circumstances do make them harder. Some production teams want to same show as they do at home with a telestrator on a full blown switcher on 1 ME. Unfotunately, with the constant changing of facilities and ones personal experience in a particular truck it's just not going to happen especially when you just want to get basics on the air because there is little time. MG, I have replied to all the relevent comments posted here as I believe this is a good discussion. I wanted to be sure you understand my personal view on this. With regards to Bob Ennis' comment: "The problem with dual feeds is that no two suppliers do things exactly the same way. Learning how production company "A" does their feed may get you in the ballpark (no pun intended) for production company "B", but everyone has different needs." This is part of the problem and as I mentioned above the same goes for Lou's comment below. With regards to Lou Delgresiano's comment: "It doesn't help either that no dual truck is configured exactly the same. Some have dual room touch screens, others lack a main room DVEous. Some have Fast Forwards, yet others are moving to ClipStores. In some the ergonomics are so bad there's six hours of physical strain on the TD before they even make air. In my experience you're dealing with a mobile company that no matter what suggestion you give them if it involves spending $.01, you can forget about it." It's a sad state of affairs to go in and literialy battle to get this on the air. The engineers are spread way to thin and with the amount of time they give you everything has to go right to make this go smoothly. Lou said you need a good TD, we've all know that but they don't care and that is part of the problem. They are not willing to fix the situation they created which is why some TD's don't want to do these shows. The ones who jobs are on the line are the producers & directors which is truely sad for something they have created. It is much easier on some of the other trucks, but the way the one company who started all this does it is just too much work especially with 1 ME - their asking for miracles everyday. Again with regards to Lou Delgresiano's comment: "One thing I never understood is why there weren't standardized DDR drives." I have discussed with this with FOX in LA and it is something that needs to be addressed. MG as you & Lou mention, having different media certainly doesn't help the situation. I did have discussions with LA about the drives and having all elements on the an Xfile load. The problem again is the media. For my MLB on FOX games I travel my own Fast Forward Drives and an XFile drive. Now what format would you like that in 720p or 1080i. There is no end, but I understand there may be a way to store your Clip Store files (fill, matte and audio) on an Xfile, but it has yet to be done that I know of.... I hear that option may be possible, but again you have the format issue when you go from a 720p to 1080i truck. Lou you mention ESPN.... now the truth is ESPN would never use the trucks we are speaking of. You and I both know that! The situation would certainly be different with media especially if the trucks were to standarize with Spot Boxes and Xfiles and not a Clip Store. They are just cheaping out and not looking towards the future which is sad to save a few bucks here or there. The networking and restoring of the clips is where all the time is saved and it is valuable time these days. We can be more productive with the proper tools but they fight us to save a few bucks here or there which only make our jobs that much harder. Someone said to me recently, take away the accountants computer speadsheets and give them a pencil and paper - lets see how they do their job then. Then maybe they would understand. mg in regards to your comment: "The larger problem is, of course, that not one production person who sits down in the truck has made the decision to do duals. We just have to try to make them work. So, we get what "they" pay for. I'm really talking about a basic competency level here, not a course in how to do my show or someone else's." Competency has always been a problem - we both know that and we've even discussed it from time to time. Even before Dual Feeds a good strong TD was hard to come by in certain markets. This is nothing new and it hasn't changed even at the dual level, it's just more obvious now with the limited resources. In regards to Mike Cumbo's comment: "I think we've come to an understanding in the forum that nationwide there's just a small pool of qualified TDs, and with the duals you've taken the pool and made it smaller." Very true.... then like me, when something else comes up the question becomes what would you rather do?.... the Dual or another event where you have a full blown switcher and where the working conditions are more comfortable. The problem is duals make everyone look bad and then as I mentioned, the producers and directors are called on the carpet for something that was created by people who have never had to do this. The whole thing is off kilter as I have stated in the past in this forum. It wasn't too long ago that Score Box operators were getting paid a 150 bucks. Come on... then they get yelled at because something isn't right and they have taken major abuse at times. The Score Box has become a major piece of equipment on all the shows we all work on. FOX Sports took the initiative and made this a technical union position bringing up the rates for this position. This is part of the on-air look of every network and the intricancy of it's intergration is important especially in displaying the information it puts out correctly. The operators should have been compensated from the start, but this is how they have approached everything. I understand the business of it all and I understand the economics, but when they did this, something had to give. All of this just stresses production too thin not to mention the trucks and engineers. MG I hear your frustratation, but LA doesn't. They just want the job done. Sadly, there is no room for equipment failure and the odds in losing two shows one day is getting closer. We already lost the 2nd segment a Boston Celtic game 1 1/2 years ago when the mini Kalypso locked up.... but they are still doing duals. These are the main reasons why I don't like to do the Duals .... like I said I'm willing to do them but my preference is to shy away whenever possible and only because this is not the kind of television I want to do. It's a very uncomfortable working environment but like anyone else I too need the work, i'm just more selective. If any director thinks a TD wants to make a mistake on the air or that the TD is purposely out there to screw them they are dead wrong. Could some of the TD's be more experienced, sure but as Mike Tiffee said the "good TD's" are not there for a reason. Although I'm sure money is a partially a factor to some, the bottomline is they have made it more and more difficult to do shows under these conditions and their original excuse of saying this came about because of the cost in doing HD shows is just bogus. Like Lou said, you get what you pay for. As frustrating as it may be for you mg it is the same for us and sometimes, it's just not worth it. Hope to see you soon. Best ... Rick. Dave posted while I was still typing this novel. I see Dave's point as well which is why (like I said) I still do the Dual Feeds. I too get my rate and I will never do it for less. I will say that all the engineers are very accommodating. Using the macros does make life easier and it is certainly more versatile, but Dave your life is a little less complex because you are in the same truck each week. That is not the case in other parts of the country and where the media is all over the place as was discussed. Your lucky to have a truck that was speced out with a SpotBox. I think it is the only truck in the fleet that is that way and life is surely easier on that front and indeed you are lucky.

Perhaps I am lucky, but here in SoCal, we have a decent situation for duel (sic) feeds. Our engineers on 10HDX (Steve Pruszynski and Mark Ryall) are very accomodating and have done the very best that they can (with the money left over from the Lambhorgini purchase) to make that side of the truck as functional and as comfortable as they can. (Hey guys, can I get my laptop shelf now? pleeeaaase?) I'm not sure I understand why people turn down duel TD jobs. I find it to be an interesting challenge. Kind of a cross between a Rubik's cube and Sudoku. The only drawback to the duel TD position is the physical disomfort of the small space provided and the small footprint operating panel (or, as a director friend who shares my initials calls it: the Easy-Bake switcher!). I get paid my full TD rate to do these shows and I still get to work with all my old friends who have been coming to town for years (only now we work perhaps a little too close for comfort). I am perhaps not helping those who would like to see duels go away, because I find ways to do all the diffficult things that I, at first, told director's couldn't be done. So they probably leave here and go to the next town and say something like "well, dave in LA could grunge-with-the-split-circle-wipe to the split-screen from that package!" I know I hate it when directors say that to me, but I get over it eventually and then start thinking about how it can be done in my system. And therein lies the key - you really have to have a system to reuse resources and not force switcher states on yourself because you only have so much, but it has to look like so much more. Some things cannot be done if your system is not set up to accomodate them (hey, I sound like a color analyst now!!). But this thread is not about the specifics - it's about the politics. And the answer there is that, contrary to all the wishful thinking about teams complaining about production values and so on, this situation is not going away any time soon. This style of television production is saving (or should i say MAKING) more money for those who really call the shots and we work for them. So your choice - as it always has been and always will be for humans - is to adapt or die! But, whatever you do, don't take a pay cut!! cheers dave

I'm gonna sound like an old guy here, but now days, it seems like people aren't willing to put in the time and effort to perfect their craft. I think that we all spent a great deal of time and effort as we chose to become freelance TDs. In my early days of sports TDing, I was given a number great opportunities (like Mike Cumbo described) by various crewers here in the northeast: small shows, learn the ropes, AD a little here and there, and work your way into bigger things. Now, I'm seeing a lot of newcomers (not in this area, just in general) that could be described as "button-pushers"...set it up for 'em and they'll be OK, but ask them to do the set-up, and we've got a problem on our hands. This seems to go hand in hand with a sense of entitlement that seems all to common. As Mike Tiffee described, apparently the inexperience is OK with the networks. Whatever happened to being afraid of looking bad? You're only "as good as your last show", right?? When did it become OK to ask networks, directors and producers to compromise their shows because of inexperience?? Good grief!! As I step off of my soapbox, I think you guys are on to an excellent discussion here, and I wish that I could offer a true solution. With all of the brain-power in this forum, I'm sure that a reasonable solution will result. Now that I again work at a station, I don't get to do as much freelance work as I used to, but I'd be willing to jump-in and do some of these dual feeds, and without taking work away from the full-time freelance TDs. I understand the gear, and would welcome the opportunity to work with another well-learned TD. MS

[quote="branedamag"]But if I get a TD who can't map the switcher, can't understand the macros, and doesn't have any experience to fall back on, I am pretty well sunk. mg[/quote] The problem you're having is the TD is inexperienced as a TD, much less a dual TD. That person is probably in the seat because an experienced TD turned the show down- either because of rate or because they don't want to be involved with dual feeds. Find out why the experienced TD's aren't working on your show and fix whatever it is keeping them away. I know many freelance TD's have no interest in helping to "deepen the pool" and train replacements for positions previously held by experienced TD's. Regardless, there's no magic fix for this other than quality TD's with experience- neither trait can be taught. If you get someone that can't map a switcher then you should be going to your crewers and asking them why they're sending you those people. We all know what the answer is- it's up to the networks to decide how important certain positions are. Apparently, the situation is acceptable. Tiffee

[quote="Big O"]Are you willing to pay $750 per day plus travel on both sides? There's lots of qualified people here that would look very closely at their schedules for that kind of dough.[/quote] I don't think they would, and that's why they end up with conferences calls like mg spoke of. What motivation do the accountants or crewers have to spend that money when they can spend $375-$425 on inexperience (or even so much experience that they're set in one way and unable to adapt) that's at the competency level that the OP describes, and fufill their duty of providing a warm body. We can all accept that this doesn't come from the producer or director, that these cuts are made from above. I think the bottom line is there's no easy way to teach competence in the dual world. [quote="Mike Cumbo"]One option, it will cost money, is to hire a green TD and have them do a "shadow" show. What I mean is when a dual is not being done, a non-Fox away show is in town, hire a TD and a director and let them do a dual to tape. Give them the normal set time. Require them to be able to do a show and DO a show that will be graded and reviewed.[/quote] When these first started they were flying some dude all over the country to train people on it. Now they've gone through so many software upgrades with respect to the single M/E board, and so many people do them I doubt training is really the issue anymore, it's just mindset. To me, these duals are at a level where if the operator can't train themselves to do it in a day or two and figure it out on their own then they're dead in the water, and duals just aren't for them. I think we've come to an understanding in the forum that nationwide there's just a small pool of qualified TDs, and with the duals you've taken the pool and made it smaller. [quote="branedamag"]I have to carry media for Fast Forwards, Clipstores, Profiles, Dveous, and EVS, plus whatever else comes up as a new development or surprise, so the common denominator often becomes Beta SP. I also don't have access to all these devices on a day-to-day basis so setting up reels and drives is often not an option. My dual show is really pretty well simplified. But if I get a TD who can't map the switcher, can't understand the macros, and doesn't have any experience to fall back on, I am pretty well sunk. So the question remains, how do we get people to that basic competency level? And, sorry to say, they are not all there yet. mg[/quote] I forgot about that, you have to travel with everything, and they've bogged you down enough. If you're referring to that kind of TD situation, you may be better off just getting the home shows clean feed and cutting your stuff on a router with CG and Clock/Score constantly keyed at that point. Though the alternative is doing it Olympics style with a single crew, and nothing more than graphics and talent voice over changing the look for the visitors.

Are you willing to pay $750 per day plus travel on both sides? There's lots of qualified people here that would look very closely at their schedules for that kind of dough.

mg, when I was learning my trade, shows were much simpler, early 1990's, and I had a crewer who put me on shows that he knew I could handle and when the bigger shows came to town I was usually crewed as a still store op so I could see what was going on and learn. I know of another crewer who would do things along the same lines. That was then, today budgets don't allow for "hiding" a person. Every dime must be accounted for. One option, it will cost money, is to hire a green TD and have them do a "shadow" show. What I mean is when a dual is not being done, a non-Fox away show is in town, hire a TD and a director and let them do a dual to tape. Give them the normal set time. Require them to be able to do a show and DO a show that will be graded and reviewed.

The larger problem is, of course, that not one production person who sits down in the truck has made the decision to do duals. We just have to try to make them work. So, we get what "they" pay for. I'm really talking about a basic competency level here, not a course in how to do my show or someone else's. There actually has been some easing of the cookie-cutter production philosophy in the last couple of years at FSN, but they have also inundated us with revisions, extras, options, specials, and whatever else they can. Also, the result of this is that every show approaches the duals a little (or a lot) differently. I have to carry media for Fast Forwards, Clipstores, Profiles, Dveous, and EVS, plus whatever else comes up as a new development or surprise, so the common denominator often becomes Beta SP. I also don't have access to all these devices on a day-to-day basis so setting up reels and drives is often not an option. My dual show is really pretty well simplified. But if I get a TD who can't map the switcher, can't understand the macros, and doesn't have any experience to fall back on, I am pretty well sunk. So the question remains, how do we get people to that basic competency level? And, sorry to say, they are not all there yet. mg

I think you get what you pay for. You'll find a lot of people around here that have no sympathy for a dual being a disaster. Maybe earmark a little of the money being saved on duals from camera operators, tape, and "real" trucks being parked at home to travel someone that knows what they're doing. For duals you need good people. TDs strong in all the elements of the Kalypso or the SBS 9k. Just like how you need the two best headhunter cameras in town (that can follow the announcers and never leave the director hanging), or the fastest tape/EVS guys...you need a strong TD. I think from doing duals the one thing that's the most important is that the director make it very very clear exactly what they want. If it's very important to be able to get to things dirty and clean, that means sometimes double, triple, even sextupling up on the same effect to make all the different variations work, an entire EMEM bank can be wasted on the replay alone. It also helps to go through with the TD, through every effect, every scenario before the show, even before meal break to ensure that the director and TD are on the same page. It doesn't help either that no dual truck is configured exactly the same. Some have dual room touch screens, others lack a main room DVEous. Some have Fast Forwards, yet others are moving to ClipStores. In some the ergonomics are so bad there's six hours of physical strain on the TD before they even make air. In my experience you're dealing with a mobile company that no matter what suggestion you give them if it involves spending $.01, you can forget about it. One big time saver is an element reel that's ready to go (well laid out Fast Forward/Clip Store drives are even better). FSN recently has been sending out so many variations of replay effects that the TD has to waste time loading from 3-5 tapes. One thing I never understood is why there weren't standardized DDR drives. Say, the entire element reel with timecode just laid down to Fast Forward. Then designate say the 2hr mark for promos truck built. That way everyone has the same idea where everything is. The same 90 minute element comp reel just laid out to Fast Forward. I believe ESPN sends out a standardized XFile clip for SpotBox, just use the same principle.

The problem with dual feeds is that no two suppliers do things exactly the same way. Learning how production company "A" does their feed may get you in the ballpark (no pun intended) for production company "B", but everyone has different needs. Generic training for anything beyond the basics would be difficult at best & wouldn't necessarily guarantee the results that you want. What we used to do on some of the game shows that I have done is to record the isolated camera feeds along with both the audio mix & the Director's PL (with their permission, of course). If we had a new camera operator, we would give them the tape of their camera to study so that they weren't walking in cold. If you took that philosophy to recording the split feed outputs (along with the PL), you would have something that a prospective TD could watch & get an idea of what's expected of them for YOUR show - they can figure out how to map "what goes where" to make it work for the way they think, as long as they know "what is SUPPOSED to go where". This of course is no substitute for experience (you get what you pay for), and this of course won't help those TD's who walk into the truck "cold", but if you're willing to pre-plan a bit, and the TD is willing to take some time to learn what you expect of them before they walk into the truck, it might save a lot of headaches...on both sides.