Yet another Kayak thread
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Sun, 07/09/2006 - 17:12
So here I am in Pittsburgh, doing one of the many international feeds, and my truck has a Kayak 3/32. I guess the 3 means 3 ME's and the 32 means 32 buttons (30 of which, I guess, can be used as crosspoints if you reserve 2 of them for shifting... there's 2 banks of shift).
I did read the other threads on the Kayak again, and now that I've sort of seen a Kayak for an entire day, I understand the frustration that TDs have with it. It's powerful, yes. Fortunately I don't need it to do very much, since I'm only cutting/dissolving between MLBi's feed and their clean feed, along with a few of our own cams, and tape sources.
That being said, I can't imagine doing a full-on production like, say, the Pirates' FSN away feed on this switcher. It's certainly dressed up to look Kalypso-like, right down to the colors of the buttons on the MEs and PGM/PST busses matching; but as most of you know, the software comes from the DD-35/XtenDD side of the Thomson house. I read a bunch of the manual today and tried out some fun stuff, just in case I'm ever asked to do a full show on one of these things, and one thing that jumped out at me was that a lot of the stuff I'd want to do is included in the Sidepanel software but you can only run that on a laptop at the moment. Great, have the EIC go buy me a Windows laptop and hook it up - I happen to run a Mac. Not that I should be required to carry a laptop into the truck anyway.
If anyone has any advice for me on cool stuff to try out, or methods you would use to build an FSN-type show on this switcher, I'm ready to play around. I'll come back tomorrow to share anything new I've learned that might help anyone in the future. So far, my first impression of this thing is a bit less than favorable. But I'm willing to change my opinion.
Wed, 08/09/2006 - 17:58
#1
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[quote="Dan Berger"]So I guess my question wasn't completely answered... can the internal DVE/TE do warps (page turns, etc.), defocus, light sources & such? The Kalypso has just begun to have this ability, so I want to know how far ahead or behind the Kayak is going to be once we get it in hand.[/quote]
Oops, I completely missed that part of your original question, sorry. Yes, you can do all that as long as you buy the "Kurl" and "Spektra" options.
[quote]By the way, this WILL be a full 4 M/E switcher... how?... A 4 ME panel (being produced as we speak, if not already), connected to TWO 2ME frames... or so I'm told.[/quote]
Wow, I didn't know that was possible... But I guess the people who built the thing in the first place would probably know that better than I do.
Wed, 08/09/2006 - 13:23
#2
So I guess my question wasn't completely answered... can the internal DVE/TE do warps (page turns, etc.), defocus, light sources & such? The Kalypso has just begun to have this ability, so I want to know how far ahead or behind the Kayak is going to be once we get it in hand.
By the way, this WILL be a full 4 M/E switcher... how?... A 4 ME panel (being produced as we speak, if not already), connected to TWO 2ME frames... or so I'm told.
--- Dan
Mon, 08/07/2006 - 17:12
#3
[quote="greg"]That is exactlly what I was thinking, if you can macro only on certin sources to link, change source, turn link off that WOULD be cool[/quote]
I was thinking more just certain effects. If you call up a DME wipe effect in an M/E, it would turn on bus linking to your program and preset busses so you don't have to manually punch in your sources.
See the edit in my previous post.
Mon, 08/07/2006 - 17:05
#4
That is exactlly what I was thinking, if you can macro only on certin sources to link, change source, turn link off that WOULD be cool
Mon, 08/07/2006 - 17:02
#5
Yes, it has bus-linking, but I'm not sure whether you can turn it on and off on the fly using macros or emems. The trouble is if you bus-link something and you can only turn it off manually by going to the menu, you lose a lot of flexibility because whatever you've bus-linked is "stuck" and you can't use it for a different effect in some other part of your show. I'm gonna do some investigation and get back. If you can control bus linking through macros, that would be awesome.
EDIT:
It looks like the Kayak's bus linking won't do the trick, it will only let you link an entire M/E to another M/E. Since we want to link a background bus to a keyer, we can't use bus-linking to do the job. However, another option is to pre- or post-attach a macro to every crosspoint on the preview row which also punches the appropriate source in the keyer. You would still have to manually punch in whatever's on the program row, however. I'd rather just manually punch both sources just for the sake of not tying up switcher resources.
Mon, 08/07/2006 - 16:50
#6
[quote="sahonen"]It's situations where you're cutting a show based heavily on DVE transitions using TEs where I think some kind of scripting language for a switcher would come in VERY handy. Just a way to say "punch whatever source is in preview into keyer 4" would be absolutely HUGE.[/quote]
I have never been on a Kayak but I am curious. Does the Kayak have bus-linking?
Fri, 08/04/2006 - 03:08
#7
It's situations where you're cutting a show based heavily on DVE transitions using TEs where I think some kind of scripting language for a switcher would come in VERY handy. Just a way to say "punch whatever source is in preview into keyer 4" would be absolutely HUGE.
How easy your life is going to be depends on how many M/Es you're getting. The most is 3, which is still a step down from a 4K, and you actually need more switcher resources to make this work. It's going to be a lot harder than it is now, I can guarantee it. Definitely try to push for an external DVE.
If you're getting the 3 M/E Kayak you should be able to manage by dedicating an M/E as a "wipe M/E" where you can recall a timeline, punch your "to" and "from" sources in the M/E's keyers, then use a macro to punch that M/E on program and run the timeline. The last frame of every transition timeline should be a macro that hits "cut" on P/P to take the new source live and free the M/E to recall another transition. If you need to come to or from a source with font, set that up in the remaining M/E to punch into the keyer on your wipe M/E. Since you are using a macro to hit cut on P/P after the wipe, that M/E will become free again immediately after your transition. Just make sure you set up your next transition delegation on P/P to put the font in or take it out with the cut.
Of course this is completely ignoring all other effects like multiboxes, OTS, chroma key and what have you. You would probably set those up in your remaining non-wipe M/E. If you need to have more than one effect set up at once, say a chroma key in a double box, you just have to let the director know you can't effect in those situations.
Thu, 08/03/2006 - 16:56
#8
So, how is the DVE/TE in the HD Kayak? One of the stations I work at is getting one for their news, and they currently have quite a DVE intensive show, with blurs, light sources, page turns, and such. I want to find out if they are going to have to re-design their entire show just to deal with the lack of DVE ability. I already know it's not going to be an easy rebuild, just cause of the fact that there is no external DVE, and they always want to go from anywhere, to anywhere, with any CG. On a 4000 with a Krystal, it's an easy show. I don't know anything about the Kayak though.
--- Dan
Sat, 07/15/2006 - 23:02
#9
John,
Thank you for correcting me. I only thought there was support out there for the Dveous....not actual production.
-Curt
Sat, 07/15/2006 - 11:52
#10
[quote="Curt"]If they were still making DVEous ..[/quote]
Oh, but they are making Dveous and other products again. Check out [url]http://www.abekas.com[/url] for more info.
-JH
Fri, 07/14/2006 - 21:33
#11
Brad wrote........I've also heard similar comments in regard to wipes: "No one uses wipes any more". While we may not use a "heart" wipe to go from the news reader to the weather, I certainly use wipes as masks, shape generators, graphics elements, glints and glows, faux-animations, etc etc. I'd certainly miss them if they weren't there, wouldn't you?......
I actually used a heart shape wipe 2 times this past week for two different effects. One as a transitional element between two sources full, and one was to wipe on lower 1/3rd GFX. I generated it from the supermatte on the DVEous, but Brad's point above it valid. If they were still making DVEous ..could see us having the same converstation about getting rid of the supermatte patterns...or supermatte altogether..
I use the simple box mask quite a bit...it is quick and easy...and you can do it on the fly if needed. I switch on a 4k ...so there are the 4 knobs for control...I can't remember if Kalypso has this on there...I would guess it does.
-Curt
Fri, 07/14/2006 - 18:11
#12
Wipes aren't dead yet... Like Eric said they looks great in plasmas, and it's just so nice being able to do a split screen just by setting up a halfway wipe, especially since the camera operators are used to it. They always want to frame for the split anyway. A wipe is also a great way to fly a font if you don't have a DVE or TE with lighting effects.
As for DME wipes being dead... The local news station I started out with uses DME wipes constantly. Bar wipes, slabs, fuzz, peels, you name it going between pieces of video. They do a lot of DDR effects too, but DME is preferred for the simplicity of just being able to select the wipe, preview the source, hit auto-trans. They can't really tie DDR wipes into the switcher because they have so many different animations there aren't enough E-Mems to recall them all, they have to run off a playlist.
I recently saw an interesting way to "vitalize" a DME wipe. If you can have some kind of background loop going on somewhere that you can feed into your DVE, you can work that into your DME move, behind the brand somewhere, and that additional element of motion makes it look almost like a DDR move.
Fri, 07/14/2006 - 12:50
#13
Upon upgrading our 8000 software to 5.3, I found that the choices of pre-built DME wipes have been extended to include non-linear effects, along with many other 2D/3D moves. While they're not very modify-able, they're quite handy to have.
I used to "fake" DME transitions on Kalypso by a combination of bus linking, macros, and timelines. One of the projects that was on my plate before I left GVG was to build a set of transitions that could be loaded by users. We never pursued that project.
Fri, 07/14/2006 - 08:41
#14
Very true, Brad, and in fact, the DME transitions on the Sony 8000, if used creatively, can look very cool and very non-70s. It can take some time to customize a wipe to do exactly what you want and make it look good, but it's worth it in the end. I still prefer the Kalypso over the Sony overall, but that's a feature where the Sony definitely has an edge over the Kalypso. I do one studio show a few times a month in NYC where we have an 8000 and we make extensive use of the DME wipes (mostly in plasmas), so to say that no one uses board wipes anymore is a cop-out. It is true that no one uses board wipes on the Kalypso anymore - because there aren't any wipes that wouldn't look dated if you used them. They could, and should, fix that.
Fri, 07/14/2006 - 03:48
#15
[quote="sahonen"]... cool feature ... DVE transition just like ... dissolve...[/quote]
The Kalypso sales brochure says this will be possible on the Kalypso ... one of the reasons I favoured the Kalypso when my organisation was looking to go digital. BUT when the Kalypso hardware was re-designed to take advantage of new technologies (the "Duo" and Hi-Def models), this functionality was abandoned. There's almost no chance of software being written for those with the "Classic" hardware to take advantage of the capabilities that are in there. When this issue is raised with Thomson, the response is often a "DVE transitions are old-fashioned and no one does them any more" kind of attitude. What's often overlooked is that a skilled maestro of the Kalypso can use this feature in subtle and creative ways that exceed the imagination of even those who designed the equipment.
I've also heard similar comments in regard to wipes: "No one uses wipes any more". While we may not use a "heart" wipe to go from the news reader to the weather, I certainly use wipes as masks, shape generators, graphics elements, glints and glows, faux-animations, etc etc. I'd certainly miss them if they weren't there, wouldn't you?
brad
bradfisher.org/kalypso
Thu, 07/13/2006 - 22:51
#16
The DD line of switchers (DD35, XtenDD, and now KayakDD) are apparently very popular in Europe, where they do a lot of the soccer (errm, sorry, football) coverage. I've never had to cut that caliber of show on a Kayak, but I imagine with that kind of following they have to have the feature set to pull it off. Having the Sidepanel available really does make your life a lot easier, you can get into stuff like PBus and GPI you need to interface with other equipment. One particularly cool feature is external DVE integration to the point where you can execute a DVE transition just like you would select a regular wipe or dissolve, just put your next source in preview and hit auto-trans. It's a big help cutting news where you're doing a lot of wipes.
Thu, 07/13/2006 - 08:56
#17
Yeah, that was EXACTLY what I saw in the manual, I should've provided more detail but I was pissed about being in a situation where I couldn't put a frickin' border on a key. And that feature I actually needed! You're right about the option being in the panel somewhere; in fact, there's even options to set the color of the border! I suppose the next software release will include that.
According to the EIC the latest software had just been put in a few weeks ago. It certainly wasn't his fault, the guy was more than helpful and almost seemed embarrassed that his boss had decided to build a truck with a Kayak in it. Even once they get the software issues figured out, there's no way I would agree to do an actual full sports production on that thing. Okay, I'm lying, if they paid me enough I'd go in and give it a shot. It's just that the Kayak logic is so clunky compared with a Kalypso or Sony (yeah, that's right, I said it. I LIKE Sonys) that you wouldn't have the versatility available to you once you're live to do the things that a standard show requires. Or so it seems to me.
Thu, 07/13/2006 - 03:49
#18
[quote="EricG"]Whoa, you're not suggesting that someone in the TV production business would cheap out, are you? Shocked, sir, am I, that you would imply such a thing!
;)[/quote]
True, true, but come on, I admit that I haven't priced any of this stuff, but how much can the sidepanel option possibly cost next to the cost of the switcher itself, or even the entire truck?
As for putting a border on a key, eh, I just realized that I've never actually had to put a border on a key on this switcher. Crazy, I know. I could've sworn I've seen the option in some menu on the panel, though.
EDIT: Digging through the manual, I found the following: "Border functionality is not supported in the first software releases." Hooray! Since I see another reference to how to actually create a wipe border elsewhere in the manual, I'm assuming the latest software has implemented this feature, in which case you should probably tell the EIC to get off his butt and keep his equipment updated.
Thu, 07/13/2006 - 02:34
#19
Yes, I agree. The Kayak is NOT a GVG product, and I am surprised they are trying to sell it as one. All Grass Valley switchers have a distinct operational method. The Kayak does not follow suite. The Zokiak switcher with an upgrade path to HD would have been a much better solution. Not sure about the future of the company if they continue on this path.
Tue, 07/11/2006 - 16:21
#20
Whoa, you're not suggesting that someone in the TV production business would cheap out, are you? Shocked, sir, am I, that you would imply such a thing!
;)
Tue, 07/11/2006 - 15:42
#21
Thomson makes an actual sidepanel to go with the switcher so you don't have to run the software on a laptop. The fact that you can run it on a laptop is really just a bonus, and really shouldn't be a reason for any truck operator not to buy the actual sidepanel. Sounds like someone tried to build their truck on the cheap.
Tue, 07/11/2006 - 15:39
#22
So today I find out that the current software, at least in this truck, doesn't support putting a border on anything you key. nice!!! I highly recommend the Kayak to anyone that wants to save money and doesn't really care about being able to do some of the things you can do on a Grass Valley 300.
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