Speakers, program speakers. Keep them near the center. On most trucks and control rooms they get thrown in each corner. Then when a director or producer can't hear and they have to crank up the volume, TD's get to hear it the most. Content is important at times to anticpate stuff, but not as important to a director or producer who always end up in the center of the truck or room. This could probably be a thread to itself about truck and control designs, and how they end up being done wrong b/c it is designed by an engineer without any user input. TD position has a lot of peripheral devices that all need to be controlled by the TD. Oh and as Lou said, crawling under the console to get at a FFV is one of the laziest things I have ever seen. Game Creek red have their's in that place. FFV should be near the tape deck used to input it, along with router and timecode patching. Bill

[quote="Curt"]I was on Corplex Sterling recently, and I liked how they had the FFWD DDR in the console right in front of the TD, along with a Wohler ( I second this as being a good idea, as someone else also mentioned). There was a 1RU X-Y Router panel there also for feeding the FFWD, Returns..and I think TX.. I realize a FFWD won't be used in your case b/c they don't do HD ( yet?) and you are building a HD truck. I assume your are building a sat/production combo based on the other trucks on your website.[/quote] I have mixed feelings on the FFV being right in front of the TD. I really prefer it in tape next to a machine I could use, not below the counter, but at eye level, and not stuck in the most in opportune corner where you have to climb over three tape guys to access it. The router head that feeds it should be within arms reach of it. That way I can "crash" into record right next to the machine. It's also crucial to have time code patches for the FFV right there, and as surprising as it seems to some truck engineers the router head feeding the FFV should allow both video AND audio. Seeing that you're going HD, I'd be interested in knowing what DDR package you're going with. An EVS operator just mentioned to me on a dual...why have blank RU spaces right in front of dual TDs and dual EVS ops when you can put a beta deck in front of them for them to use as a load. I agree wholeheartedly that a space for laptop, with power, RJ-45 network jack and lance CueMan upload ports are all needed in the TD work area. A telephone for the TD also helps, and a telephone system that everyone can pick up and join the partyline for fax really helps too. Production lighting and audio controls are also a big help. Nothing hurts the TD more than a production team that comes in and blasts the speakers to compensate for bad install aim of the production speakers. Don't forget router heads for camera viewfinder returns at the TD position as well. As far as intercom, if you're going with something like a KP-32 make sure the TD has a fully functioning panel, I can't stand when I'm stuck with a smaller less functioning intercom box yet everyone around me has a KP-32. If you don't go with a TD wholer consider permanent positions in the intercom for the TD DDR, and not just an unreliable aux that has to be patched. That's one thing I don't get, we've used DDRs full time now for nearly a decade and we still patch audio to the TD on a day-by-day basis. It's like trucks that don't have a permanent engineering position for the bug. We've used bugs for 13 years, and some trucks are still patching it every show to a frame sync or third gfx position in their engineering setup. Another thing I prefer that is seemingly disappearing in the HD world is a Waveform and Vectroscope for the TD. There's argument as to whether it's needed, but I still love having perfect levels even in the HD world. I know it's a great expense, but it can really improve the quality of shows.

Paul, Here are a few thoughts for the TD area.. I was on Corplex Sterling recently, and I liked how they had the FFWD DDR in the console right in front of the TD, along with a Wohler ( I second this as being a good idea, as someone else also mentioned). There was a 1RU X-Y Router panel there also for feeding the FFWD, Returns..and I think TX.. I realize a FFWD won't be used in your case b/c they don't do HD ( yet?) and you are building a HD truck. I assume your are building a sat/production combo based on the other trucks on your website. A hybrid Sat/prod truck I was on once had a DOREMI right in front of the TD also As far where to put a laptop...if space is tight, maybe mount some gear in a side console and put a plexi top w/ feet velcroed to the desktop. Here is a crude version made from a cardboard box used to hold bottled drinks turned upside down, and modified. ( cheesey, yes..but it worked) Same idea as this...but substitute the cardboard for a piece of plexi w/ feat. This covered up a Feral DVE, and DNF Digicart controller if I remember correctly. ( mounted vertical, it is hard to tell from the picture) W/ the plexi you could still see through to any display, and if the front was open, you could sneak your hand in there for any tweaks. This would give you a place to put the laptop as well. A former coworker/ TD and I once thought of using a similar idea to cover up some camera RCP's in the TD area. They are redunant, and we end up just throwing rundowns, headsets, etc etc there anyway. One other thing to look for is if the Kalypso is installed flat, it is sometimes hard to see the LCD displays. Maybe ask some other TD's for their opinion on this, but I would rather have it at a slight angle so it is easier to see M/E 1..etc I would imagine this isn't as big of a deal for taller TD's. Hope this helps, and good luck. Curt

I second Steve's suggestion. The Game Creek trucks are great example of listening to and designing for the end-user. I have a pic but it's at home. I could almost care less about how things are laid out if you give me a place to put my laptop.

The picture quality of these new cardboard monitors is fantastic! Scott

I think the Game Creek trucks (the new ones, at least - Patriot, Yankee Clipper, and Freedom) have some of the best TD work areas. Of course, these trucks are also some of the largest footprint trailers in the industry :-) There is a small desk to the right of the TD; the menu panel is mounted on the wall on a pivot, as you discussed for your installation. The Gveous is on an articulating arm on the right, as well. Some router panels and the intercom panel round out the equipment to the TD's right. If I might make two humble suggestions: -Include a desk surface for the TD's laptop. It doesn't need to be a large surface, but it must be unused by any other equipment. I've worked in too many trucks where the flat surface to the TD's side has counter-sunk equipment mounted in it (intercom panel, router panels, etc.) -- put this extra equipment on the wall and let me have a dedicated place for my laptop. -Along with the other rackmounted stuff I mentioned above, you should consider including a Wohler speaker for the TD. With virtually every show having a TD's DDR of some sort, the aux input to the TD's intercom isn't cutting it anymore. Good luck...and, if it's possible, have fun with this! -Steve

[quote="Paul Wolf"]Looking for additional help. Please tell me abut you favorite sidecar. Or better yet, send me pics. Starting to Run out of room. Suggestions? PS here is the High Def Monitor wall. [url]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a153/PWolf/web%20pics/Picture717.jpg[/url][/quote] I would suggest more tape :) sorry that was too easy

Looking for additional help. Please tell me abut you favorite sidecar. Or better yet, send me pics. I?m starting to build the TD?s side-cart. Currently the Touch Screen (Menu) will be located on the wall to the right of the switcher. The Emergency buss located in front of the switcher on a linear slider. Next mounting the , RTR, KP, Lance and Coffee cup holder. Starting to Run out of room. Suggestions? PS here is the High Def Monitor wall. [img]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a153/PWolf/web%20pics/Picture717.jpg[/img]

Font flys? That's so 2002. Next you'll be telling me you still use letterbox effects! ;)

Hi Paul. I've been paying attanetion to your post and can't help but throw by two cents in regarding "Double Take." I use this feature on all my shows. It makes the switcher much more powerful - it is the only way you can "split" your ME's so that you have a very versatile swither. Most trucks that didn't buy this option had to later - for instance F&F out of Florida. All trucks that I have worked in with a Kalypso also have a DVEous. They aren't used as much any more but are very useful. I use all my Kalypso transforms for double boxes, score clocks, etc. The DVEous is great for font flys, roll out effects and production specialties.

Why buy a DVEous? Wire the truck so that a rental unit could be tossed in IF a client wants/needs one. I agree with Bob about Clip Cache, We kept a looping logo running for two or three days and never used a DDR.

You mention 6 channels of DVE and then later mention only 3 channels of iDPM - this seems contridictory to me. In my opinion, getting a 4 M/E Kalypso with only 3 channels of internal DPM is like buying a new Ford Mustang with only a V-6 - you (and your users) are going to miss the extra power and flexibility of the other 3 channels. I can almost guarantee that if you get the other 3 channels, they'll be used on a regular basis & your users (and clients) will thank you for it. Make sure that you get the advanced Lighting package...Rick E is right in that the iDPM's can't do what a DVEous (or 8000) can do - the warps are fairly limited, so adding lighting can help out a little. 2 Chroma Keyers are usually enough, unless youhave a user that prefers to substiture graphics Video/Key pairs with Chroma Keys...but I would STRONGLY suggest getting the Clip Cache extended still store memory - the still store really needs that extra power to work in many of today's production applications. Most users that I know are using the Split M/E mode ("Doubletake") on a regular basis - that's something else to look into. Andif you plan on doing live production, you should be looking at filling out the compliment of backup power supplies for both the panel & the frame. By the way, if you're looking into a DVEous, make sure that it's an MX so that it will do HD...and seriously consider the CPL interface on the DVEous - it's a lot more powerful than just relying on PBus.

[quote="JohnHowardSC"]I'd suggest adding the DVEous.[/quote] That will then make it WAY more expensive than the 8000 (and finally bring the DVEs up to the 8000's level) :-)

I'd suggest adding the DVEous.

Ok here is what I have ordered. From a TD?s position did I miss something?? Kalypso HD/SD 6 DPM ch.s 4 M/E?s 2 Chroma Keyers Still Store, FlexKey Internal DPM (iDPM) w/ 3 Ch?s of Video/Key HD Kurl Now I am considering adding an older DVEous to the Chain however is it overkill? I did not add the double take option or color corrector....

I think as Bob mentioned the DVE/DME's is one of the biggest differences between the two. It may not change what is seen by the viewer, but Sony and Kahuna had the benefit of seeing what was wrong with transform engines, and made an improvement on internal DVE's. Bill

There are actually a couple of ways to "cheat the system" into ignoring the key states. The first and most obvious is to use Macros instead of timelines. The Macros will ignore anything that you don't touch when building the macro, and they can be built with timed pauses to allow for DDR graphics and undecuts. The second, and slightly more diabolical way around the recall of key states is this: Put the M/E into Split Layered Mode; assign 3 of the 4 keyers (or however many you want to be "independent") to the second side and use the secondary side as a kind of "key combiner"; Route the second side keys into the primary side keyer by selecting the "B" output of the M/E s the key source; in the E-MEM Prefs, assign the secondary side of the M/E to a level OTHER THAN the M/E's Primary side. The result is that these keys no longer react to the M/E's main E-MEM recalls...the effect is that these keys "ignore" the M/E's commands, "just like the SONY". It is my understanding from users that I have spoken to is that this technique was shown to prospective customers at this past NAB. My only issue is that when the technique was demo'ed, it was passed off as "Partial Keyframing" or "Key State Ignore". I personally find this to be misleading. The truth is that it was just a clever use of the Split Layer Mode coupled with Second Side re-entry...they should have been up front & called it what it is - a workaround. We as TD's spend a large amount of time working around the shortcomings of whatever switcher we use, so many of us can live with the idea that our switcher "can't do it all" without us having to use our grey matter. The technique that I just described is a workaround...but the end result is the same as what you asked about, and to the home viewer, there is virtually no difference between the 8000's or ExtenDD's (or even the Kayak's) ability to truly ignore key states and the Kalypso's "cheat" to accomplish the same thing. What I probably should have said in my original diatribe was that the end result of what you see on screen can be achieved by any switcher (although external peripherals may be required to achieve the results). For example, where the 8000 can combine 4 DME channels as one output and still have 3 keyers left over on each M/E, I can achieve those same 4 boxes with 3 keys on a Kalypso - I may have to burn up 2 M/E's to do it (yikes!) or build the 4 boxes in Split Layered Mode on another M/E & bring that in as 1 key on my Target M/E (double yikes!), but the result on the screen is the same. This ability to convince the customer that "we can do that" without actually explaining what it takes to "do that" has sold a lot of switchers...on both sides, I assume. I guess that too many people get blown away during a demo with flash & glitter and thus just don't ask the right questions when they're shopping.

Hey Bob, I thought your reply was very unbiased and straight forward. I do have a question, though, regarding your statement, "ANYTHING that you can do on a Kalypso you can do on an 8000, and vice-versa." As you know, the Sony has the capability to ignore the state and parameters of selected keyers of an M/E involved in a timeline effect (I believe this is in the Path menu?). How might this same function be performed in a TL effect on a Kalypso? JH

[quote="Paul Wolf"]So they decided to compete against their competitor. In the end we decided to go with GV but it was a very, very hard sell for GV actually, they outbid Sony.[/quote] Very intersting! I wonder if T/GV was reading this forum and they saw they had to be competitive or lose a sale. Paul, I also see your decision was based on Users, Client choice and Price ... I fully understand the price factor. As for the Users & Client choice, that was the whole point in my posts. As is with anything electronic, there will always be something new around the corner, and as with all new technology, it's almost impossible to keep with the constant changes in that technology. I'm in agreement with Bob Ennis however, that TD's are the ones who make the effects. I have always said "switchers are switchers", but it's what we as TD's do with those switchers that set us apart. While the Sony is a great product and it has a lot of "new" features I like, I know the decision you made with Kalypso will suit your needs for years to come. I think in the end the transition for your engineers will be that much easier, but it's nice to see that T/GV was being competitive.

Update!!!!!!!!!!! GV removed the stick and they all agreed there was some sort of an aroma on it. So they decided to compete against their competitor. Now if originally I were faced with quotes from both manufacturers and GV was 20k more than Sony I would have chosen GV. However, after this forum and many phone call conversations with TD?s I realized that the GV isn?t all I thought it was! In the end we decided to go with GV but it was a very, very hard sell for GV actually, they outbid Sony. Our decision was based on Users, Client choice and Price. THANK YOU everyone!!!!

My hopefully unbiased and potentially unwanted opinion on this recurring debate of which switcher is "better to purchase" is this: Switchers don't do effects...TD's do effects. As one who works on both Kalypsos and 8000's, I believe (and have proven at trade shows & demos) that ANYTHING that you can do on a Kalypso you can do on an 8000, and vice-versa. Our job is to take a tool and make something creative come out of it, regardless of whether that tool is a 1-M/E switcher or a 4 1/2 M/E switcher. From what I have seen, the better TD's can do this regardless of the brand name. That's not to say that each of us aren't more comfortable on our home turf. But too many of us get into a mindset that automatically causes us to artificially say that what we are working on is the best gear and the only logical choice...that's just not true. I've taught enough Kalypso classes to know that you can't just "hop onto" a Kalypso from a simpler switcher and make it sing without some training and/or experience on the panel. The same holds true for the 8000. T/GV has historically had a decent training program...if you're willing to pay for it. SONY has been more aggressive in providing training at little or no cost. There's no excuse for anyone who wants to be proficient on either brand not to be able to drive that product...If there's a lack of "experienced" SONY users OR Kalypso users out there, it's not the fault of the equipment. I've been fortunate enough to be involved with a few manufacturers and have been involved with a number of product developments and/or improvements. I can safely say as a user of both the SONY & the T/GV that (at least in my opinion) between the 8000 and the Kalypso, neither product is better or worse...they're just different - they approach the same functions in different ways (sometimes this is necessary because of patent infringement issues, and sometimes it's just common sense - why would you want to have to remember 100 E-Mem NUMBERS when you could NAME each effect & recall by name?). You can EASILY find ways to work around each product's shortcomings and to accentuate each one's strongpoints.

Here's my half a $.01 opinion...I had a show on an 8000 earlier this year. Luckily I had a set-day, because I found out that morning trucks had been switched. I had never even SEEN an 8000. But I was able to figure most of it out. Now I know set days are a luxury, but I tend to believe that TD's are pretty intelligent (at least 99% are). I'm just going with my opinion here...I love the Kalypso. But I do wish I could get more time on an 8000, to see what it can do.

[quote="kschneider"]Of course, if it was up to me, I would go for the Kahuna. However, that is a very biased opinion. :) -= Ken =- Ken Schneider Kahuna Program Manager Snell & Wilcox[/quote] Ken, the Kahuna shows a lot of promise, so you have every right to be proud of it. It was quite early when I saw it, and there were some bad things that could be "fixed" with software re-writes. S&W is wise to listen to customer feedback about that. As for hardware, it had some features far superior to both Sony and T-GV. I found myself thinking "Gee, I wish Kalypso could do that." The lack of market penetration is a big influence on purchasers, who can't run the risk of not having an operator available capable of using the equipment. (I was very uneasy about the prospect of being the only Kahuna facility in Australia.) It's the same with the other 2 big names - availability of operators will be a big influence, as it seems it was for Paul W. All three switchers are top-class and capable. All three would be able to achieve just about anything a program required of them. In the hands of a skilled operator who knows the equipment, the viewer would not know any difference. But the critical factor is the [b]operator[/b] - your purchase decision must take this into account. Where there is only one operator capable of doing your show, he or she can name their price. When you have dozens of people you could call on, market forces will result in a lower labour cost to you. When the organisation for which I work was looking at HD equipment, Sony was incredibly helpful with offers of support and training ... virtually unlimited one-on-one help until our (Kalypso-skilled) operators were competent on the Sony 8000. It was a big plus for Sony when we were deciding which switcher to buy. In the end, though, we too made a decision for a HD Kalypso. There are always issues other than purchase price that need to be taken into account. After exchange rates are taken into account, that's my $0.012543 cents worth. brad

[quote="kschneider"]Of course, if it was up to me, I would go for the Kahuna. However, that is a very biased opinion. :) -= Ken =-[/quote] Ken, how many of your boxes are there vs the Kalypso or the 8000?

Of course, if it was up to me, I would go for the Kahuna. However, that is a very biased opinion. :) -= Ken =- Ken Schneider Kahuna Program Manager Snell & Wilcox

[quote="P Moss"]Paul IMO I would go for the Sony Why well it is well reported that the Kalypso is on its last version of software so you are buying into old technology whereas the 8000A is still very much current and more flexible. When I speak to TD?s and EIC here in the Uk and Ireland most of them want to work on the Sony. On a readability front I was on a job at the weekend and the engineer wished that they had more Sony?s as in his word they just keep working whereas the Kalypso?s are more unreliable. Good luck Phil[/quote] I agree the Kalypso seems to be on it's last legs... Sony would make more sense from that perspective.. Bill

Paul IMO I would go for the Sony Why well it is well reported that the Kalypso is on its last version of software so you are buying into old technology whereas the 8000A is still very much current and more flexible. When I speak to TD?s and EIC here in the Uk and Ireland most of them want to work on the Sony. On a readability front I was on a job at the weekend and the engineer wished that they had more Sony?s as in his word they just keep working whereas the Kalypso?s are more unreliable. Good luck Phil

Paul - I'm laughing my @$$ off here!!! That is the funniest thing I have ever seen! Nicely done. The Kalypso will serve your needs, as well as those of your clients and operators nicely. John

If I add up my percentages it looks like 67% of the time its a Kalypso and 33% is an 8000. Or the truck works 67% of the time or 33% of the time. So I have spent the last 3 days talking to TD?s. It is my opinion?.. He goes more sparks. ?? Sony TD?s seem to know what the Kalypso can?t do. Where as the Kalypso TD?s are only familiar with what the Kalypso can do. Make any sense? Again my opinion only?. I would have chosen the Sony for: More options, price and nicer sales folks. I can?t believe I have to go to Grass Valley, Bend them over, Remove the Stick, Smell it and tell them ?you?re right it doesn?t stink!? However, this is about making money. Being a Vendor truck you need to go with the flow and work wherever the jobs are. The verdict is in. We have decided to go with a Kahuna? Only kidding. Kalypso. Thanks for all the help?.

Very well put John, I agree no sparks.... two different views on the issue that all. Listen I like the Sony, but like Mike mentioned, it's nice to have the additional time to set it up the Sony. Plain truth, it's just faster and more straight forward to program a Kalypso. Familairity will play a bill roll for him. In addition, Paul has to consider his clients, his operators and engineers. What makes the best sense for him business wise. If he has to fly in people to operate the Sony how much is he really saving show after show after show not to mention rebates when a show doesn't go right because of a operator. I'm sure he is in business to make money. As I mentioned, I like the Sony, but truthfully it's not as straight forward as the Kalypso and the GV is just easier to program in a short amount of time. Given these choices Paul has to think about his client base, how the truck is marketed and how much more business could he get once the truck is upgraded. The truck will surely generate more dollars than SD but only he can determine his business model if he chooses to expand his client base which should be any truck facilities main focus. This is a determination he has to make.

No sparks - Paul asked a very good question, Rick and I gave him two different personal opinions to ponder. Just like the Hokey Pokey - "that's what it's all about!" "You put your Duet in, you take your Duet out ... You route your DVE and trans-form it all about ..." :)

My $0.02. Training support is great but I have not needed any with a Grass product. Between this board and some friends I can solve any problem that has come up. I have had to call Phil Lucas, Sony trainer, for help for both the 7000 and 8000. Paul, ask the TD's who currently use your trucks. How good are your engineers? Are they willing to become a trainer? The engineers on NMT HD-6 know the 8000 so that when they get a novice they can get them trough. Much like when Flash Jr. was on A-19 with the DD-35. Most EIC's who have a Sony have to be able to assist. If they can't God help the client. I work the 8000 for NHL and NBA. I like it. HOWEVER if I walked into a truck with the normal six hour sports set time and had to build everything I probably would get 1/4 to 1/2 of what I need for that show compared to a Kalypso. If I had a set day, no issues with either.

29 minutes after the original post and the sparks were flying already. here we go again!! ;)

Paul don't be foolish .... if you don't have TD's to run the SONY then you won't have happy clients. Sony is agressive for one reason, they have to be. With the Kalypso the learning curve all the way around will be smoother. If you have had little problems with your Zodiak and your engineers know that, then the transition will be much smoother. I know it's a business decision especially with the dollars -- but if your truck is not marketable because your operators can operate the switcher then you have only a few choices .... fly in competent help if you choose the Sony (then that will cost you too), train people and/or go with what the operators your using know, which most likely know the Kalypso. The Sony is a good switcher and so is the Kalypso, but it sounds like you have to think about who is going to run the equipment. They each have their pluses and minuses. You just have to think about your clients and if 33% of your business is sports then really that is all you have to think about because those shows could be a little more complex then some of your basic entertainment shows. If it were me, I'd be looking at the bigger picture which is who else I can market the truck to once it's upgraded! Good luck with your decision.

Paul, I would recommend that you closely examine the Sony 8000. The Kalypso is still a very good switcher but you're statement regarding T/GV's stance on price is right on and is a good example of the overall attitude that many of us feel the company has taken; an attitude that, I believe, they can no longer back up. Sony has made remarkable improvements in their switchers and are doing all of the things that some companies used to do in terms of listening to the users and offering unparalleled operational training value to TDs. And their technical and ops support, in my experience, has been tremendous. If you mainly work around New York I imagine that you would have no problem finding a good core group of TD's who can pilot the Sony. Just my $0.02. John