Lou - I do run the K2 right from the 8K via direct machine control...for Wheel (3 V/K pairs). We haven't had any real audio issues with this setup, but it's just graphics, and the short sound effects can be easily replaced if anything gets botched. For Jeopardy, it requires a Tape Op who is cueing up video clues based on where on the board the contestants are going, along with cue-ups of Daily Double graphics and backplates (which are different depending on a regular Daily Double, an Audio DD or a Video DD). For this show, direct machine control would not work, as we have lots of video clues for each show (and we do 5 shows a day), and these clues get changed - thus we need a dedicated person to "play along". It is with this DNF control where we have been having the audio issues. I think that it's software related - we were setting up to make a tape of the problem that we could send to GV, but first we upgraded to their latest software - in the process of the software upgrade, we experienced even bigger issues. We were kind of the "beta site" for using the K2 in an actual production situation rather than for just commercial playout. It's too bad - I'm going to miss having those extra 2 channels.

[quote="Bob Ennis"]For Jeopardy it's being run from a DNF Box for Clue Playback - with that we HAVE had problems.[/quote] I stand corrected. You're right, they were running them through a DNF box for cue playback and that's what did it. Of course they never intended to use them for interface with the TD, but for playback of stories and commercial spots and any other video they could jam in on them. Now that you mention direct machine control, I'd like to suggest hooking up the K2 right to their 8k.

[quote="Bill D"]I mentioned to the Abekas folks at NAB that they should look at doing louth and odetics/amp machine control. Sounds like there would be a lot involved and they were not looking at doing it, atleast not right now. I guess P-bus would be the way to directly call up multiple clips for now. Bill[/quote] Sounds as if the Abekas folks heard it from a lot of people. Probably just like the Omega/Fast Forward people who've had folks ask for the last 3 years when they're going to have an HD product out.

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"][quote="Rick Tugman"][quote="Lou Delgresiano"]If there's ever a show that needed a SpotBox it's there's![/quote] Hi Lou: Long time no see ... glad to see you posting again. Well your right - they do need a SpotBox, but truthfully, MASN does make the most out of a 2 channel DDR and it doesn't look too bad for what it is. You could never do that on a Clipstore which was the point I was making. It's a pity some of the truck companies are cheaping out on equipment, then again they really don't care about productivity, because if they did, they would put SpotBoxes in all their mobile units and do it the right way. Hope your doing well. Cheers, Rick.[/quote] Rick thanks for the kind words. As always you're dead on with that certain pesky el-cheapo mobile company. I was begging the Abekas people not to go any further with their own P-Bus control for their ClipStore, because that mobile company would not buy a Lance TDC-100. --edit-- I overheard more than one person suggest to Abekas that they make their Clip Store Odetics friendly. Not sure all that's involved with that, but I love it for the Profile and Spot Box. There was mention of the new Profile for HD. I've seen a K2 Profile, and boy are those slow. I know the one configuration I saw had a 12 second recall....even 2" tape only took 8 seconds.[/quote] The recue time of the K2's at NAB were a normal profile recue (1-2 seconds?) Obviously no idea about the audio issues Bob is seeing on Jeopardy, wonder if that is hardware or software related. With the added 'playlist' feature on the K2's, you can now build loops or playlists (active head to loop animation) in the profile, and then have the switcher call up the playlist through machine control. Right now unless the server supports it there is really no way to do looping and playlists through machine control, I don't know of too many servers that allow this, doremi and leitch DDR's only support this using their GUI interface not machine control. EVS told me the spotboxes also cannot do playlists, no idea if that is correct. The K2's will do Louth and Amp remote protocol. I mentioned to the Abekas folks at NAB that they should look at doing louth and odetics/amp machine control. Sounds like there would be a lot involved and they were not looking at doing it, atleast not right now. I guess P-bus would be the way to directly call up multiple clips for now. Bill

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"]There was mention of the new Profile for HD. I've seen a K2 Profile, and boy are those slow. I know the one configuration I saw had a 12 second recall....even 2" tape only took 8 seconds.[/quote] Lou - We've been using the K2 for both Wheel & Jeopardy this past season. For Wheel, I've got 6 channels set up as 3 V/K pairs. I run it all in BVW mode (direct machine control from the switcher) & it's been working OK - no real issues with speed. For Jeopardy it's being run from a DNF Box for Clue Playback - with that we HAVE had problems; while the video plays back OK, the audio often sounds like it's being scrubbed. We've had to re-do a bunch of clues (and thus do a lot of fixes for the contestants) because of that - the latest that I've heard is that it's in the process of being pulled out & sent back to GV.

[quote="Rick Tugman"][quote="Lou Delgresiano"]If there's ever a show that needed a SpotBox it's there's![/quote] Hi Lou: Long time no see ... glad to see you posting again. Well your right - they do need a SpotBox, but truthfully, MASN does make the most out of a 2 channel DDR and it doesn't look too bad for what it is. You could never do that on a Clipstore which was the point I was making. It's a pity some of the truck companies are cheaping out on equipment, then again they really don't care about productivity, because if they did, they would put SpotBoxes in all their mobile units and do it the right way. Hope your doing well. Cheers, Rick.[/quote] Rick thanks for the kind words. As always you're dead on with that certain pesky el-cheapo mobile company. I was begging the Abekas people not to go any further with their own P-Bus control for their ClipStore, because that mobile company would not buy a Lance TDC-100. --edit-- I overheard more than one person suggest to Abekas that they make their Clip Store Odetics friendly. Not sure all that's involved with that, but I love it for the Profile and Spot Box. There was mention of the new Profile for HD. I've seen a K2 Profile, and boy are those slow. I know the one configuration I saw had a 12 second recall....even 2" tape only took 8 seconds.

[quote="Rick Tugman"]Hiya Bill: I fully understand what you are saying with regards to "managing clips" but the Clipstore (from my experience) doesn't work that way and therefore, not as 'cool' as you think. Once your clip is loaded, you can access the video on that specific clip or, append and add on to it. To make a "new" clip means you have to have that clip called up and loaded to access the material in that clip. That is a big drawback from what I see of the Clipstore. You just can't just access different clips via a recall during your show. As for managing clips in BVW mode on a Fast Forward, it's very basic. Yes, I do re-records over a certain timecode. I just add material to a certain hour. Let's say I put promos at hour 5, then the next time I have to load promos, I rewrite over hour 5 thus not creating additional space on the disks. If you own your own Fast Forward drives then you can manage how things are laid out, then "managing" becomes easy. Yes it would be easier to actually see a clip then delete the clip you don't want, but as with everything there are some limitations. Sure a GUI would be nice with thumbnails, but on a Fast Forward this can be managed and all material can be accessed with a little planning. As for the 2 channels F/K, there is so much more you can do with the 2 channels of video on a Fast Forward if the graphics are thought out. One simple thing is on local FSN gigs and having 2 color moving backgrounds available to you and having access to them at the same time. This is just one small example! Another example would be MASN's old roll out effect. Lum Key on channel one which transitioned to a Chroma Key element combined with a M/E on channel two. Nice effect which you could never do on a Clipstore. This is just one of the advantages of having the 2 full video channels available. Sure it would be nice to have a SpotBox, but as you eluded to, it can be pricy and most of these companines today, they just don't want to spend the bucks. I agree with you with regards to FFV taking their sweet time to redesign introduce their HD replacement of the Omega Deck. We can only hope they will learn from the market and include a way to do file transfers. With everything transitioning into HD, I just don't think companies should rush into buying something that will limit what you do tomorrow. The people making these decisions are not operators and they are only concerned with one thing and that is not how well you can do your job given the right equipment.[/quote] Hey Rick.. When I was referring to multiple clips on the Clipstorre, I think you need to use their P-bus directly, without a controller. This will allow for multiple clip recalls. With a lance, the clipstore will only run in BVW, so obviously only one clip, which is basically what a FFV does. Although as you mentioned the append feature on the clipstore may not be what the FFV is. So with direct P-bus and using clips should be a little easier to manage. The # of channels is obviously something they will need to look at before they buy something. Who wouldn't want two real channels? But if FFV doesn't do HD yet, then what are the other options. The turbo I use is a real 2 channels and we use chroma key for transitions, but it does not do HD. Maybe one thought is to buy two clipstores. Another less expensive then EVS alternative is the new profiles. You can buy them as two channels I believe, it will do file transfers and playlists, and you can do machine control with a Kalypso or Sony. Hopefully the truck companies or studios do their homework and buy the device that will work best for their client's needs, not simply but the cheapest. later Bill

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"]If there's ever a show that needed a SpotBox it's there's![/quote] Hi Lou: Long time no see ... glad to see you posting again. Well your right - they do need a SpotBox, but truthfully, MASN does make the most out of a 2 channel DDR and it doesn't look too bad for what it is. You could never do that on a Clipstore which was the point I was making. It's a pity some of the truck companies are cheaping out on equipment, then again they really don't care about productivity, because if they did, they would put SpotBoxes in all their mobile units and do it the right way. Hope your doing well. Cheers, Rick.

[quote="Rick Tugman"]Another example would be MASN's old roll out effect. Lum Key on channel one which transitioned to a Chroma Key element combined with a M/E on channel two. Nice effect which you could never do on a Clipstore. This is just one of the advantages of having the 2 full video channels available.[/quote] MASN is still doing a lot of that today! Where you use what should be an EVS front end to your second channel of FFV with font over its moving bgd. If there's ever a show that needed a SpotBox it's there's!

Hiya Bill: I fully understand what you are saying with regards to "managing clips" but the Clipstore (from my experience) doesn't work that way and therefore, not as 'cool' as you think. Once your clip is loaded, you can access the video on that specific clip or, append and add on to it. To make a "new" clip means you have to have that clip called up and loaded to access the material in that clip. That is a big drawback from what I see of the Clipstore. You just can't just access different clips via a recall during your show. As for managing clips in BVW mode on a Fast Forward, it's very basic. Yes, I do re-records over a certain timecode. I just add material to a certain hour. Let's say I put promos at hour 5, then the next time I have to load promos, I rewrite over hour 5 thus not creating additional space on the disks. If you own your own Fast Forward drives then you can manage how things are laid out, then "managing" becomes easy. Yes it would be easier to actually see a clip then delete the clip you don't want, but as with everything there are some limitations. Sure a GUI would be nice with thumbnails, but on a Fast Forward this can be managed and all material can be accessed with a little planning. As for the 2 channels F/K, there is so much more you can do with the 2 channels of video on a Fast Forward if the graphics are thought out. One simple thing is on local FSN gigs and having 2 color moving backgrounds available to you and having access to them at the same time. This is just one small example! Another example would be MASN's old roll out effect. Lum Key on channel one which transitioned to a Chroma Key element combined with a M/E on channel two. Nice effect which you could never do on a Clipstore. This is just one of the advantages of having the 2 full video channels available. Sure it would be nice to have a SpotBox, but as you eluded to, it can be pricy and most of these companines today, they just don't want to spend the bucks. I agree with you with regards to FFV taking their sweet time to redesign introduce their HD replacement of the Omega Deck. We can only hope they will learn from the market and include a way to do file transfers. With everything transitioning into HD, I just don't think companies should rush into buying something that will limit what you do tomorrow. The people making these decisions are not operators and they are only concerned with one thing and that is not how well you can do your job given the right equipment.

I realize the channels are f/k only, as I said. I am sure there are some productions that would get the full benefit of having two real channels, but I have never used a FFV for anything other then F/K. It is of course nice to have the flexiblity, but it is also nice to have HD. If a truck or control room needs a HD DDR, sometimes a spotbox (I think 4 channels goes for over 100K) is a little too pricey. The FFV has kind of rested on its past I think, it still can't do file transfers of video clips and it is still not HD. How are you managing clips on BVW? By re-recording over a certain time code? I have no idea about the clipstore append feature, I do understand how you can easily add material to the end of the FFV, so that's easy. Re-recording over a specific timecode to me doesn't seem as the best way to manage clips. Clipstore supports clips, this is about the easiest way to manage media. If you don't want the clip, delete it. The clipstore works very similar to a GVG turbo which I use daily. The turbo does do a full 2 channels, although does not do true HD. To me clients should embrace the importing clip idea directly from whatever source. Once your clips are in, adding more material means just adding new clips. I know this is different then what is typically done, but it is much easier to manage clips when they are all seperate, how easy is it to manage clips when it is in BVW. Go through and make a list of where each clip is via timecode. I think it is easier to look at thumbnails and a clip name, and forget about logging anything. These are the things that I think make the clipstore pretty 'cool'. I love FFV's I have used them many times. There are still going to be situtations where the FFV is better, etc. I would much rather have a GUI in front of me to record and mark clips then to go find the FFV under where the tape ops sit and try to do it on the front panel (the new one makes no mention of a VGA output). From there you can just use the P-bus feature and trigger the clips directly. As I previosuly mentioned and Zipp did as well, no one does everything well, or else it would be an easy decision on what to buy later Bill

Rick is correct in his description of the Clipstore storage. Unfortunately, my client needs to be able to use both channels independently, making the clipstore unusable to me, and why I called it a 1 ch box. From what a FFV rep told me, the storage/operation on the HD version will remain on 2 independent drives/channels. I hope he is correct. I was really hoping the box would be SD/HD. Ahh, I keep asking for more.

Hi Bill, If I read your post to Zipp here correctly, you can't get the same results of a Fast Forward. The Clipstore has many limitations for playback and storage wise. The biggest problem is no way to manage the clips that you injest. In other words you keep adding on to the disks which means you lose disk space on each append and addition of new material. The Clipstore requires 3 disks, 1 for video, 1 for the key and 1 for audio. Additionally, unlike a Fast Forward you cannot use the second channel as a video channel. It limits you to the type of effects you can do because you don't actually have use of the second channel because it is KEY ONLY. On the current Fast Forwards, you can manage what you store and how you store video on because of the BVW mode. With a Fast Forward you have the choice on where to put video and to where on the disk. You have the choice of writing over existing material thus saving and managing valuable disk space. Additionally, both channels can be used for video as I mentioned, therefore if your graphics department created a graphic that uses Chroma Key one one channel, you could then transition to video on the "other side" of the Fast Forward to a different element. You can't do that will a Clipstore. The Clipstore is very limiting and while some think its cool, without use of the other channel it does not allow you to do multiple things as you can do with a Fast Forward. The big minus is mangaing the clips that are injested! I'm very interested to see when the new HD Fast Forward comes to the market. If it is the same in format (2 drives/2 Video channels), I'm pretty sure that it will quickly surpass the Clipstore which can't deliver the same performance of a TRUE 2 channel video DDR.

[quote="Zipp"]Bill, One point about the Clipstore is that it is only one channel, yet the same cost as a 2 channel FF. Your're correct it is a great box. I just wish it came in a 2 channel version. Let me know what you build in your garage, I'd buy it. I've been researching these products and feel all the vendors are just missing it. Due to cost I think I'll have to just buy a 2 ch FF and like it.[/quote] Zipp, The clipstore is 2 channels, but 2nd channel is key only. So unless you are doing chroma key stuff on one channel of FFV and a looping bgd on the other you get the same end result. Also has some cool monitoring outputs, if you read the brochure link from the clipstore forum you can read about it. Also at NAB they had a HD FFV, expected out in the fall I think, it didn't sound very impressive as far as importing files. Nothing new in my garage, I have to step over 6 bikes, 2 green machines, a couple of scooters and some basketballs just to get a wrench. :) later Bill

Bill, One point about the Clipstore is that it is only one channel, yet the same cost as a 2 channel FF. Your're correct it is a great box. I just wish it came in a 2 channel version. Let me know what you build in your garage, I'd buy it. I've been researching these products and feel all the vendors are just missing it. Due to cost I think I'll have to just buy a 2 ch FF and like it.

[quote="Les"]Bill Did you get to see the new Ross Vision? I have only seen a Demo of their Synergy MD series as I was not at NAB this year. Just curious what this new switcher was like?[/quote] I saw it but only stopped for a minute, they were doing a demo for a station, where they were showing the inside of the tub. I didn't stay around. Seems the Ross stuff does some great stuff on a budget, I figured the chances of me ever seeing one were slim, so I didn't bother hanging around for any more info. I hung around longer 2 years ago when I went, and saw it did some cool stuff but of course not on the same level as the bigger switchers. It did have pretty purple lights. Also won an award from NAB whatever that is worth. Sorry..

Bill Did you get to see the new Ross Vision? I have only seen a Demo of their Synergy MD series as I was not at NAB this year. Just curious what this new switcher was like?

T/GV was showing their 4 ME Kayak with a 3 ME panel, most of the software was stuff the Xtend had 2 years ago, cool software for sure, stuff you don't see elsewhere. Also trails on their DVE's. They now have up and down converters built in. I know a lot of people mention about the Side panel not being installed, they said the trucks just need an extra laptop etc to run the program. Which I am sure they don't know about it seems. Kalypso just had the V 14, think was same as what was released in Dec. The new still store software re-write is expected next month, completely new SS system. Then Ver 15 will have trail's on the DVE's. Nothing big otherwise. I asked if Kalypso was staying around. They said it is still moving forward, and that Kayak will never have a 4 ME panel, etc. Kahuna whether it was new or not had some cool stuff, it supported all machine control protocols out there, Louth, Odetics and AMP, which is pretty cool, since I thought only GVG had AMP. They had a feature where using a internal SS animation you could use the auto trans to run a wipe with the animation, and then offset the timing of the wipe to match the animation, all while using the auto trans. Xtend had this a few years ago, and Kayak does now, very cool, Kayak and Xtend also let you speed up or slow down the actual animation by just changing the trans rate. Kahuna also had 2 other frames hooked up to demonstrate how easy it is to control other frames, and have one ME mirror another, all shows up in the GUI, they still have the resizers and scalers as they have had since day one I believe. Also multiple pages of macros and stuff on their version of lcd pads. Sony's new stuff was cool, still would like to see the macro's work more like GVG or Xtend (same thing almost). Where you can macro menu's and insert the macro's in timelines. Although kalypso still can't edit macros, so trade off there. Sony of course has great macro edit functionality. Also be nice to see Sony have AMP for machine control so if you have 1000 clips on your server you can have folders to organize stuff easier, I don't think Louth supports folders. As well as allowing machine control over ethernet. If you have a facility with a few servers or DDR's, sure a lot easier and more flexible to put them all on a network and pick the one's you want to control in each room. Maybe you have a special event where you want to control them all, while normally splitting them among different control rooms. Just change menu to take control. Maybe would have to go through their system manager. The resizers are great especially since they are standard, supposedly will have defocus in the future, hopefully the stations will still buy you the other 8 channels of DME for the real stuff. Otherwise just nitpicking on what is an amazing product, but if it was perfect then that what fun would that be. As far as the rest of the show, I saw some cool technlogy where they take a live camera and put an animating chicken on top of a piece if cardboard, as you move the cardboard the chicken stayed on it no matter where it went, not sure how you could use it, think they said as a marketing tool, but it was very cool. Few of us were looking at servers or standalone DDR's. Looking for something that played fill and key together, and accepted file trsfr as one quicktime movie clip (f/k) together, did playlists looping etc. in the server. Switchers can't do playlists like an external controller, and using P-bus in a large studio environment with many shows gets old, b/c you have to build the P-bus files for every show and every time they launch a new look. There was Leitch Nexio, which made you assign fill and key together in a table, after importing them together. Chryon Xclips, you had to actually take every trsfr and on their program assign it somewhere else, and then go find the audio that was stripped from the trsfr and assign it back to your clip. F/K stayed together as one. Also dos P-bus directly. Basically a thunder that recalls clips quickly. Abekas Clipstore was very cool, great FFV replacement, but only does BVW, need clips in a large studio environment. Which it does very well, and with playlists (3 point looping) Did do P-bus directly, also no raid, so if drive fails.. Easily kicks a FFV, very powerful. Doremi, only does playlists on the front panel. GVG K2 profiles. Seemed to do most stuff, few quirks to work out and also have heard about some bugs possibly. Does all protocols, and can do playlists and looping easily in the server. Not a bad price either it seemed. In either case I am going to my garage to create something that does everything well rather then some things well and other things ughghghgh.... Did I mention the chicken? Bill